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29 October 2014 at 05:18 #34261
@strax While I didn’t share your boredom with the episode, I really liked your post. I too enjoy grumpy old men!
@bobbyfat do those who make it to the nether sphere have to believe there is an afterlife Interesting idea. Half faced man certainly believed in the promised land.
how come missy bears an uncanny resemblance to my boss? Because you are really Seb? 🙂
no possible justification for this, but i have felt all along that the nether sphere is in a tardis, tho whether it is the doctor’s, the master’s or a n other time lord’s i know not, but if i had to choose i would say a n other ‘s tardis inside the doctor’s tardis and disguised as the bookcase, cos there is something very odd about that bookcase… I would say it’s entirely possible; at times it looks very much like the inside of a TARDIS. I love the bookcase idea!
@papermoon To me, it seemed as if he deliberately goaded the Doctor into throwing him off the TARDIS just so he could say to Clara ‘Now you can see him for who he really is’ Yes, I do see your point about this scene.
I think that what the child said was “what are the round things?”
@janetteb So perfect that, as the Doctor points out, he isn’t entirely believable. So, is he a fairy tale turned real, like Robin Hood (whom Clara always wanted to meet)?
27 October 2014 at 04:59 #34190@purofilion I’m sure Canada would be happy to have you! 🙂 But have you seen anything about our government these days? It’s absolutely shameful. Up with pipelines and tar sands, down with science and public broadcasting. Down with foreign aid, up with military interventions and anti-terrorist measures. Honestly, it’s painful watching as our current leader works to dismantle everything that the rest of the world admires about us. Fortunately, we have an election in another year, and it’s just possible that people are finally tired of this a**hat and his minions.
Spleen vented… no, wait. AAAAAAAAGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!
Okay. Done now.
27 October 2014 at 04:39 #34189@purofilion I have a mental image of you, like the little boy from A.A. Milne: Halfway down the stairs is a stair where i sit. there isn’t any other stair quite like it. i’m not at the bottom, i’m not at the top; so this is the stair where I always stop. And, like Reb Tevye, you are crying out in despair, “No, no! There is no other hand!”
@blenkinsopthebrave, I think that if it were my child off on a field trip, I would expect above all that the teachers’ first priority would be to get him home safely (NOT into space!). I quite liked Danny in this episode (although he was perhaps a bit bossy at the end, telling Clara essentially to go home and do her chores before they could talk!). But overall I found him very sympathetic.
I also agree with Puro that I found the children to be very believable. I have met kids that talk like this! They can be hilarious (at least, I find them hilarious). And yes, the math class scene: my son loves to read those lists of goofy answers to math and science questions, and still tells the story of a 12-year old classmate who, upon being asked to read aloud the word “doorknob”, hesitated for a moment and then said, “Dork-nob?” We still call people that regularly. 🙂
26 October 2014 at 23:42 #3417126 October 2014 at 20:30 #34164@blenkinsopthebrave Yes. I really enjoyed this, all on it’s own. Someone earlier suggested that it was only interesting as part of the arc, but I disagree. I enjoyed the story for it’s own sake, and felt that the character development was touched on only lightly.
@zeitgeis I’m not sure that we have really learned anything that we didn’t already know. We knew that Clara was lying to Danny about traveling with the Doctor because she didn’t think he would approve. I didn’t get from this episode that he ever “insisted that she stop”. So I don’t think that anything about the lying or Danny is new information. What is new is that he now knows that she has lied, and his response (so far) has been very measured.
@mudlark I loved your post about English and the Anglo-Saxon/Old Icelandic mythological tradition. @purofilion’s view as a Classicist probably mirrors how a lot of university-educated Anglos would have viewed literature in the earlier twentieth century, before Tolkien came along and re-popularized the Germanic world. I have had the fabulous experience of hearing the medievalist Ben Bagby perform Beowulf in bardic style, and he turned a concert hall into a mead-hall with the single word “Hwaet!” It was astonishing. Ancient English mythology is so powerful, and it’s really a shame that people aren’t exposed to it from an earlier age, when it could capture the imagination as fully as the later English traditions (like Robin Hood) have done. Hm. Maybe the Doctor could visit early medieval Scandinavia? 🙂
@ WhoGirl @thebrainofmoffat We have seen this kind of story positioning before. Rather than Turn Left leading to The Stolen Earth/Journey’s End, this was more like The Lodger and The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang. Of course, whether you like this “calm before the storm” approach is a matter of personal taste!
26 October 2014 at 20:14 #34163@juniperfish I too loved the TARDIS door scene. I have never tired of Capaldi’s brilliance throughout this series. Good question about Missy, what exactly was it that surprised her? Clara choosing to save the Doctor and die herself? Clara choosing Danny over the Doctor? Or Clara going in the TARDIS at the end and not staying with Danny?
@purofilion Yes, I loved the Doctor with the kids in this, and even the Doctor with Danny. This is a calmer, less angry Doctor than we saw a few episodes back. Also, this: In a way, it was more thought provoking than an episode that is ‘monster only’ or ‘fantasyPlus’. It was drama at its best in 45 minutes with an amazing backdrop. This reminds me of Listen, where there was no monster. Myself, I don’t need a monster, just an interesting story. I found this interesting and engaging. Is it me, or have the stories on the whole been less “timey-wimey” this series?
@melloyello to make up for what we have had to endure What you have had to endure, surely? I realize you probably don’t mean to sound as if you are speaking for everyone, but it does get my back up when I read this kind of comment. Personally, I have really loved this series. It seems the whole episode was created and shown just to set up Missy’s response of being surprised. That’s interesting, because to me, Missy’s scene was the bit the jarred. It felt a bit irrelevant, I didn’t really want to go there at that moment.
@phileasf I’ll just say that it’s pretty amazingly irresponsible to have the Doctor say, in effect, that people who hear voices should stop taking their prescribed medication. That actually didn’t bother me, because I felt it was more likely referencing the ongoing debate about the over-diagnosis and over-medication of things like ADHD in children, which is actually a big problem. I like your bonkers theory, though! It fits with a lot of things very well. @purofilion’s elaboration fills it out even further. I’m not sure how it would tie up with Missy, though, because I’m pretty sure that she must be more than just a Clara-invented saviour of dead people.
26 October 2014 at 19:40 #34161Perfect early Sunday morning: men of the house happily sleeping in, cat fed and back asleep, cup of tea, and Doctor Who! 🙂 Sorry to bore, but once again, I really enjoyed that story. I felt completely engaged by the mystery of the forest, the little bits of character development that were slotted in, and the way the story developed. The only time I was really taken out of it was with Missy’s brief appearance (I find I am actually pretty bored with her).
I thought the children were very believable, having had a lot to do with kids that age, and “gifted and talented” made me smile. I liked the little boy’s remark that he was getting scared and that always made him forget his anger management! Danny was great, calm and in charge. I liked the manner in which he took the revelation that Clara had been lying, as though he perhaps understood her better than she realized. I was also quite happy with his revelation that some people really don’t want the “big adventure”, but just the “smaller adventure” of everyday life.
I loved the moment of realization, Nelson’s column appearing in the middle of the forest, and the constant reminders of bits of London appearing here and there. And the realization that it isn’t just London, but the whole earth, that is now covered in forest. I loved the green planet in space. I liked the Doctor reminding Clara about the zoo, and that of course there were wolves in London.
And the whole “This is my planet too” scene was beautifully done. Looking forward to second viewing. Meanwhile, some comments on comments.
25 October 2014 at 03:45 #34076@bluesqueakpip Anyway, what could be more scary than an insane Master trying to torture the Doctor? An insane Master trying to be helpful, in the Master’s own, inimitable way. ‘Cause they love each other really.
No kidding. In fact, if they cast the right person (I’m assuming a regen), this could be brilliant. We could potentially have the best Master-Doctor pairing since the classic Delgado-Pertwee (which was always the best in my view). As @purofilion suggests, it’s hard to imagine that Moffat wouldn’t want to put his own stamp on the Master at some point. But I must admit that I stand with those hoping that it isn’t Missy, because her character seems just a little too camp for what I would be hoping for, and because when we finally learn Missy’s secret, I really, really want to be surprised!
@pedant Regarding the Kursaal Flyers theory, we haven’t seen Missy at the laundromat with her unmentionables, so there’s that problem, but otherwise, I’d say the theory is sound. 😉
24 October 2014 at 16:08 #34064I’ve had a tough time coming up with a tune for Flatline, so while this isn’t perfect, it’s the best I could do! Anyone remember Black Flag?
24 October 2014 at 04:20 #34050@xad4 Yes, new to me as well. I didn’t join the forum until after @htpbdet‘s passing, but as a lurker since inception, I always read his posts with delight and admiration, especially when he was so generously sharing his amazing life story. Such a loss. I’m sure his friends here will be raising a glass in the pub after this week’s episode.
23 October 2014 at 17:00 #34031Some great posts since the other day, really fun reading. @purofilion’s post about the Doctor’s “hero moment” is beautifully descriptive. And @juniperfish’s “he can be the slow burning fuse at the heart of something” is actual poetry!
@thommck Loved your Missy post… I’m looking forward to the blog!
And Puro, I can only say Eww. With stuff like that in the world, I’m surprised scifi writers have to make anything up!
@bluesqueakpip but maybe it’s a good thing for his remaining sanity that he can’t play God like that. In my mind, I had connected that ending to the ending of Voyage of the Damned, where it is specifically stated that “That kind of power would make you a monster.” This interested me, as this episode, of course, has the Doctor literally naming himself as the one who stops the monsters.
@juniperfish I always thought that The End of Time actually diluted the stark simplicity of the Doctor’s choice. It was implied early on that the Time War was wreaking such havoc that the Doctor felt it simply had to end. But in TEoT, we see that the high council was planning something apparently even worse than the war, and as the Doctor said “That’s why I had to stop them.” So it was no longer just about ending the war, but about stopping the Time Lords. I was never quite content with this change, and it seems to me that Day of the Doctor (and Night of the Doctor, for that matter) largely ignored it, moving back to the original motivation.
21 October 2014 at 07:07 #33938@purofilion I share your feelings about the need for increased “darkness” in DW. I think that early on, there was an expectation that things would take a darker turn with Capaldi, because of some of his other roles. And now, because we now see a Doctor less given to sentiment, less “cuddly”, we are to some extent searching for moral flaws. I know that we were given the question “I am a good man?”, but it never actually occurred to me to question it! Nothing I have seen this season has changed my view that the Doctor is, essentially, a force for good.
As you so eloquently said, we have been given plenty of intense and scary stories this year; although, to be fair, not everyone agrees on what is scary! For me, I would say Listen and Flatline were both really intense, scary stories, while Into the Dalek, Time Heist, and Mummy were fast-paced and suspenseful. Deep Breath, too, for that matter, had some very atmospheric, scary scenes.
By the way: It’s now raining egg shells and arrows on my head. Stop IT!! Have you been using the Infinite Improbability Drive?
21 October 2014 at 06:54 #33937@capriella It is interesting that you wanted more information about the Doctor and his past, while some fans are absolutely incensed that Moffat dared to add anything about the Doctor’s past at all! 🙂 One of the many challenges of writing DW.
@lisa I have a hunch that Missy is a previous companion of the Doctors- maybe from 1 of the audio stories or comics ?? I think that is not likely, but what a fabulous idea!
@scaryb You make a good point about Missy’s line “I chose well” not meaning that Clara is necessarily her tool already. We’ve been assuming that the line meant that Missy has been using Clara all along, but perhaps she hasn’t actually started using her yet? Or, what if she doesn’t mean she chose Clara well, what if it was Danny that she chose, to get to Clara, and thereby to the Doctor? Or something like that. Anyway, mainly, we should not assume anything!
@janetteb When I spoke of preferring to see Clara save herself, I was more referring to the idea that the Doctor might “save” her by leaving her behind (in the manner of the First Doctor and Susan, or what Eleven tried to do when he bought the house for Amy and Rory). If it really is best for her to stop traveling with the Doctor, I would hope that she would see that for herself. I agree with your preference for well-rounded, flawed female characters, and I think that this is definitely what we are being given with Clara this series. It was the flaws that were missing previously.
21 October 2014 at 06:40 #33936I had a second watch today, and I am so impressed with this episode! The scenes where people are sucked into the walls and floors are very scary, starting with the really creepy pre-theme cliffhanger. And when the giant hand appears in the tunnel! Great concept, beautifully executed.
Lines I loved:
“I’m the Doctor.” “Don’t you dare.”
“You really do throw your companions in at the deep end, don’t you?”
“And yes, that is a thing!”
“I don’t mean edible pie, I mean circular pi. Which I realize would also mean edible pie…” (Do we have pie in the pub?)
“Is this official? Because I’ve always wanted to ram something.”
“Take it out and sonic it.” (And really, to those people who were unhappy with the use of the sonic screwdriver this week, I would say this: If you, like Clara, got to be the Doctor for a day, wouldn’t you want to use it as often as possible? 🙂Elements I loved:
The Doctor’s understated delight over the mystery of the smaller TARDIS, along with the great background music here.
The revival of the TARDIS is just awesome!
The Doctor’s discussion of role playing, recalling his conversation with Robin Hood: “the role that you are determined to play – I must play mine, the man who stops the monsters.” Clara’s smile and slight head shake here are lovely.
The Doctor- the Bloke in the Box. 🙂And a few thoughts:
Despite his difficulty in understanding human reactions, this Doctor gets that sudden talk about shrink rays is going to scare Rigsy off.
On my second viewing of the scenes with Danny, I couldn’t help but think that we’re giving him a hard time. He really just seemed quite nice and normal to me.
Has the Doctor seen the Addams Family???? He seemed to get instantly what Clara was telling him to do.
Rigsy really wanted a hero’s death, I wonder why? I wish we could have had a tiny bit more of his backstory.
The Doctor was quite nice to Rigsy at the end, it was good to see that.
Killer Graffiti.
Toodis!20 October 2014 at 01:17 #33874So, as we now know that Missy’s plan seems to involve Clara, I am reminded of her (Missy’s) seeming anxiety at the end of The Caretaker. Could that have been because it seemed possible for the first time that Clara’s growing involvement with Danny might take her away from the TARDIS, and away from Missy’s plotting?
@purofilion A Pupil Free Day! How marvelous that they actually call it that. 🙂 Otherwise known, of course, as a School Free Day (to the kids). At my son’s high school they have, among other things, an hour of planning once a month, which for reasons unknown to me is called “HIP Day”, and school starts an hour later. My son LOVES this! An extra hour in bed. 🙂
19 October 2014 at 20:34 #33859@oblique I think that different aspects of DW speak to us all differently, depending on who we are. I’ve always watched DW on my own, as it is not my son’s or husband’s “thing”… they are WAY too realistic-science minded to enjoy it. But I have always watched with a certain childlike glee that warms more to the quirks than to the chills (although I enjoy the scary bits too!). It helps that I discovered the show during the later Tom Baker era; I have mentioned elsewhere that City of Death was my intro to Who, so you can see where I’m coming from. 🙂
19 October 2014 at 20:28 #33858@purofilion @soundworld Well said, regarding the Doctor’s character and what this episode displayed of it.
@scaryb Yes, I have also said before that I would certainly prefer Clara to sort out her issues on her own, rather than having the Doctor or Danny doing it for her!
@badwulf Oh, thanks. I am pretty fond of Pyramids of Mars, but that scene is done for me forever now. Kneel… before… nipple!!!!
@fatmaninabox It’s no longer a UFO as I’ve identified it (possibly). It’s a seagull. For some reason, I find this absolutely hilarious.
19 October 2014 at 20:09 #33857@phileasf I had written this, before reading your post about the same subject: For a Doctor-lite, I thought there was tons of Doctor. I confess I’m having a hard time understanding those who feel that there’s been too much companion and not enough Doctor. The balance doesn’t feel any different to me than the Amy/Rory/Doctor balance did. And what about Donna Noble saving the day in Journey’s End? And Martha doing the same in The Last of the Time Lords? For me, the Doctor has always been the catalyst, and frequently the hero, but only recently have we been shown him as being on his own journey. Usually, the journey has belonged to the companions. Currently, we’re seeing both a Doctor journey and a companion journey; at least, that’s how it appears to me.
To your discussion of BG companions, I would add that we frequently saw them off on their own, working separately from the Doctor to resolve things.
And I like your “evil laughter as cultural difference” theory!
@glenisterm It sounds as if you are in western Canada? Me too! 🙂 There are actors, writers, musicians, and artists on the forum, but you may be the first magician. Very cool gig.
19 October 2014 at 19:46 #33853@purofilion’s use of “buffa” to describe the comic touches in this series is interesting. It reminds me of the classification of many of Shakespeare’s plays, which were called comedies because of the wit of the dialogue and (I think) because, unlike the tragedies, they didn’t end badly. 🙂 And Mozart’s opera Don Giovanni, which he called opera buffa, but which included seduction, rape, murder, and supernatural vengeance! Some have found the humour in the series heavy or awkward, but the balance has worked well for me.
@idiotsavon With this Doctor, I like that I can be a little in awe of him. I felt that way about Tom Baker’s Doctor (my Doctor) that while there was warmth and humour there, you couldn’t get too close to him, and he felt a little scary at times. I think I agree with @scaryb that there was less swagger in his “I am the Doctor” speech than we have seen previously. Maybe because he has had a long road to travel to reach this self-acceptance, he makes the statement with a little more determination and gravitas, acceptance rather than the joy of Eleven or the cockiness of Ten.
19 October 2014 at 19:37 #33852@flirtingdinosaur @jimbomcmaster The thing about TARDIS physics is that the whole central premise is outside of the everyday physics that we (or I) understand. There was a wonderful, physical demonstration here of the hard-to-grasp fact that the inside of the TARDIS is essentially unconnected to the outside. It is a different dimension, and never has that been more clear than with tiny TARDIS and giant Doctor!
@strax @rebostar When we talk about “liking” a character, there are different things that we can mean by that. We might like/not like the actor, or like/not like the way the character is written. Or we might might not like a character that we are supposed to not like, like the public works guy in this story, for instance. My view of Clara is that I am enjoying the character more than in series 7, because she feels more like a real person to me. I also think that the character is essentially a decent person, also brave and smart. I think she makes some poor decisions, though. She is a bit like the girl friend that I want to shake a bit and say “What were you thinking, sister?” She can be irritating at times. But I think that she is supposed to be. How we take to that will depend on our own tastes. Your mileage will vary, etc.
19 October 2014 at 19:25 #33849So many great comments, big and small.
@bluesqueakpip So Clara passes the baton; from Smith to Capaldi. He takes the Sonic, and he defeats the monsters. Nicely put. The Doctor finally, definitely embraces the inner hero that he has been denying all series. A wonderful and (to me) unexpected payoff at the climax of this episode.
Nerd of the week, beautiful. 🙂
@purofilion Good to see you back! I always miss your wonderful combination of forthright speech and literary imagination in the discussion. I love the story of your ancient Greek prof. I once took a course in Old English from a German prof who simply couldn’t understand that we weren’t all linguistics majors! He expected us to easily make connections that just weren’t always happening for us.
@scaryb Agreed that Clara’s lying in this case is not a good thing. Because she’s doing it for selfish reasons. @pedant‘s description of Danny as the friend/lover of an addict is spot on. Trying to help but afraid to rock the boat, frustrated by the behaviour but afraid to take that final hard line. @juniperfish suggests that “we’re supposed to wonder if Danny is a wrong ‘un”, but frankly, I’ve just not seen enough of him to view him as anything other than innocuous, an apparently nice guy who is a little damaged from his life experiences. I wonder if, were this anything other than DW, would we all still be so suspicious of him and his motives? And @bluesqueakpip, I wonder if Danny would have taken such a hard line against the Doctor if the Doctor hadn’t taken one against him?
The survival of the nasty-minded public works guy reminded me of the unpleasant business man in Voyage of the Damned.
19 October 2014 at 18:14 #33844I had no idea what to expect with this one, and was quite delighted with it. I loved the monster concept, and that there was both a lightness of touch and a believable sense of danger. A few thoughts:
Clara did lie! (An essential survival skill and a bad habit.)
She was an exceptional Doctor, goodness had nothing to do with it. Again, is the Doctor a good man?
This planet is protected! The Doctor stops the monsters. A different result than the egg-moon incident, he still gave them the benefit of the doubt initially, but they did turn out to be monsters after all (rather like the dimensional rift creatures in the Unquiet Dead).Now off to read what everyone made of the last moments of that. Clara, my Clara?!?
17 October 2014 at 00:56 #33649@wordmuse What I am enjoying about this series is the fact that the “arc” is subtle enough that it doesn’t interfere with my enjoyment of individual episodes. I will admit to being less than passionately concerned about where Clara and Danny will end up, and far more interested in the recurring themes of soldiers, the doctor as “a good man”, and so on.
@bluesqueakpip makes some good points about Danny. I would add two more. One, we are still waiting to find out whom he killed (it was made fairly clear in his first appearance that he killed someone who was not a soldier). Two (and this is the bigger one), I find it extremely odd that he would not have made some effort to accompany Clara on one of her journeys. This is a huge, massive part of Clara’s life and you would have thought that he would have wanted to see what it was all about, at least once. I can’t imagine being in a long-term relationship and having my partner traveling regularly to exotic locales without me (even strictly terrestrial ones)! And when Danny acknowledged that the Doctor’s main concern was that he be good enough for Clara, wouldn’t this have led to a desire to prove that to be true, at least for Clara’s sake?
It seems really unlikely that Clara can continue traveling with the Doctor if she is going to continue her relationship with Danny, simply because this creates a giant void between them, of experiences that they can’t share. Personally, I am hoping for @jimthefish’s last possibility, as it would be far more satisfying to see her take charge of her life, rather than have decisions made for her.
16 October 2014 at 06:38 #33615@fatmaninabox Thank you! 🙂 We had punk for engineers, and now we have some for poets. Brilliant.
@thekrynoidman Thanks for DMR. I had entirely forgotten that song, but it came back instantly!
@scaryb “The Men Who…” and Brunel have been passed on to some others, who are also planning to share. Maybe they will become a thing (assuming they aren’t already)?
@whisht Willie! And Cher! Bravo.16 October 2014 at 06:32 #33614@soundworld The next of my notes was to say how very much I enjoyed your little essay on myth, metaphor, and reality. My reality is always a lot more interesting with a bit of the other two mixed in! And then I looked, and you are off again, this time about the Cyberiad. Very well played. 🙂
@mudlark I completely agree about the Doctor’s head ruling his heart. This, among other things, is what recalls the Fourth Doctor to me. And speaking of malfunctioning, this isn’t the first time Twelve has talked about people in this way: “You’ve all developed a fault!” And @scaryb, the Doctor’s line “Can I talk about planets now?” should have been on my list of brilliant throw-away character building lines, it was so perfectly played.
@phileasf The Doctor as the Odyssey, brilliant. Especially throughout the new series with the destruction of Gallifrey, but in many ways, true from the very first: he was the wanderer who couldn’t go home.
@jimbomcmaster I liked what you had to say about the “character-driven arc”. I will admit that this was exactly what I was hoping for this series, as I am a bit of an old school viewer who likes being able to enjoy episodes for what they are. The plot arc elements in this series have been there for the fun of speculation, but have not been omnipresent in the way that you mention in Series 6.
Your point about earlier Doctors needing to make similar impossible decisions is also interesting. I think that Twelve can make these decisions openly and without guilt, because he has come to terms with what he did on the day when it wasn’t possible to get it right. Ten and Eleven had not reached that place.
@brewski The Arc in Space! 😀
16 October 2014 at 06:13 #33613Regarding Clara, I agree with @juniperfish and others who like Clara better now. As @janetteb says, there are times when I want to give her a swift whack upside the head when I think she’s behaving stupidly, but that is eons better than the uberconfident, impossible girl of series seven. I felt last year that I always liked her best as the Claricle in The Snowmen, where she felt like a real person. Now she feels that way again.
I agree that things will shortly come crashing down around Clara. My hope is that she will learn from it and resolve things. I hope that Danny is “the one” and she does a Martha and says “K, thx, bye” to the Doctor. And has a great life. I am a little tired of the “companion who never wants to leave” meme, and most of them come to a bad (or at least complex) end! I’d love to see something different for Clara.
16 October 2014 at 05:58 #33612Coming late to the game due to Canadian Thanksgiving, I must say that this was exactly what I was hoping for! A perfect balance of fun, thrills, and emotions. So much has been said already, and so well.
There were some great little character-building lines thrown into the script. Where the professor says “…hoping that one day I might meet a real monster,” and the Doctor’s reply: “Well, isn’t that everybody’s dream?” And when Clara accused him of knowing that it would be dangerous: “I didn’t know… I certainly hoped.”
And for the Captain as well; his worst nightmare is the “mystery shopper”! And after the third person is killed: “It turns out it’s three.” That was the moment I started to like him. I was truly sad when he died, so bravely in the end. And it was the moment in which the Doctor was forgiven and understood.
I thought the Doctor’s faked plan to sacrifice Maisie was well played, I really thought that he had crossed the moral line. And then suddenly I saw what he was doing and it felt very triumphant! I loved the whole scene where he confronted the Mummy, it was beautifully and emotively done by Capaldi. I actually wept when the mummy saluted the Doctor.
So now the Doctor has turned away one potentially excellent companion, and one potentially excellent companion has turned him down. Interesting that he invited the mechanic to come along when he thought Clara was finished. I wonder if Journey Blue would have received a different response if they had met in this episode?
Re Perkins: I wasn’t surprised when the Doctor invited him aboard, because it seemed from their first meeting that they had a lot in common: the inquiring minds, the professional nosiness. But we were also shown along the way that Perkins, like others before him, found the Doctor’s attitude off-putting. It struck me, though, that he was less concerned about taking “time to mourn” when the victim wasn’t someone he knew personally, so a bit hypocritical there.
The shoutouts to Tom Baker really stood out, but I liked @jimthefish’s call on the Doctor’s confrontation with the captain as “pure Pertwee”. That scene stood out for me because Capaldi was clearly playing it absolutely straight, no quirks or snarks, and that was for me the essence of the Third Doctor. I hadn’t put the label to it until I read that comment.
I was very interested to read people’s differing views on whether or not Clara was lying. My first thought was that she certainly was, but I now realize that we don’t yet know if she lied to Danny. It depends on what she tells him when she goes home. She definitely lied to the Doctor though, in saying that she had wanted to stop traveling because Danny wanted her to stop, and was now changing her mind because he had. Interestingly, almost the Doctor’s first line in the episode was when he said to Clara, “But thanks for lying.” And then in the next scene, Maisie says to him, “That’s a lie.” I was disappointed in Clara’s decision at the end, not because of what it was but how she decided it. I think she is digging herself a hole, frankly, and it won’t end well.
14 October 2014 at 20:05 #33564@xad4 Thanks for that lovely bit of Tom Waits!
@thekrynoidman, The Bangles, brilliant. Always enjoy the Blues Brothers, and Soul Man in any version is great.
@idiotsavon What a lovely surprise in the midst of the undead! Love HB.
@whisht Enjoyed Moonlight in Glory. Perfect title for the theme, and I was I the only one last week during the nights of the large round moon, who looked up into the evening sky and said aloud, “It’s an egg!” ? (And I love that you could even find a song called “Space Sickness”!)And on the punk side:
@fatmaninabox I always enjoy the Blyth Power when it shows up on here.
@scaryb OMG. The Men That… fabulous! And that song! Be still my heart.
And all the Clash tracks, awesome. @thekrynoidman, I have always thought of the Clash as punk music for smart people. In other words, there’s punk and there’s punk (as has once again been demonstrated on this thread!).14 October 2014 at 19:55 #33562@xad4 Thanks for that lovely bit of Tom Waits!
@thekrynoidman The Bangles, brilliant. Always enjoy the Blues Brothers, and Soul Man in any version is great.
@idiotsavon What a lovely surprise in the midst of the undead! Harry Belafonte, beautiful.
@whisht Enjoyed Moonlight in Glory. Perfect title for the theme, and I was I the only one last week during the nights of the large round moon, who looked up into the evening sky and said aloud, “It’s an egg!” ? (And I love that you could even find a song called “Space Sickness”!)
14 October 2014 at 19:20 #33559Some terrific stuff on here to get caught up with, but before I do, my train song. So many great possibilities, but my choice is Mystery Train. Lots of versions including the classic by Elvis, and another by the very cool Brian Setzer, but I’m going with this one:
6 October 2014 at 22:12 #33159I like what people have been saying about Clara not wanting to make the choice, the choice that puts her in the Doctor’s place for once. She seems to feel, both before he leaves and afterward in the TARDIS, that making these decisions is his job. However, he feels that, this time at least, it isn’t his place to make the choice for humanity. This seems reasonable to me, so I’m still struggling with what is really behind her anger.
When Eleven took the kids into danger with the Cybermen, Clara trusted him that he would get them out of danger, and forgave him quite readily for getting them into danger in the first place. Her whole relationship with him was based on trust. And in Deep Breath when to all appearances he had abandoned her, she trusted that he would come back. And he did. So the trust survived the regeneration. And as people have remarked, there seem to have been a good number of adventures since Deep Breath, so we are well past regenerative angst now.
But she really doesn’t seem to trust him, or be willing to cut him any slack, and I’m not sure why that is suddenly the case. Is it to do with Danny? Clearly, Danny doesn’t trust the Doctor. Whatever his own bad experience was, he is equating it with Clara’s relationship with the Doctor, and possibly this is affecting Clara? But after a second watch, I am very much with @jimthefish on Clara. This considerable anger doesn’t make sense to me in light of everything that’s gone before.
6 October 2014 at 05:07 #33119@purofilion The Doctor and the River of Forgetfulness– lovely.
@phileasf According to my husband, the earth history nerd, there is more than one theory regarding the origins of the moon. Definitely one theory (although admittedly not the most popular one) is that the moon is an asteroid that got sucked into our orbit at some point. So this could work with the Doctor’s “tagging along for a hundred million years” line, as well as the continuity with the Silurian episode.
@idiotsavon I like your point about the Doctor’s judgement. Perhaps some of these incidents were among the “mistakes” he mentioned in Deep Breath?
6 October 2014 at 04:59 #33118@janetteb Ah, yes. Interestingly, Clara started out the episode angry that the Doctor had told Courtney she wasn’t special, and she ended the episode angry at the Doctor for treating Clara herself as if she weren’t special. I don’t remember the exact words, but she definitely berated the Doctor for treating her the same as he treats other humans. It struck me at the time, because if it was intentional, it’s a bit of a snotty attitude to take. You’re right that the Doctor acts as though he has a different definition of “special”. Courtney is now “special” because she went to the moon, rather than special because she was a human being with her own individual strengths.
I will watch again tomorrow and get some of the dialogue sorted out, but there are some interesting undercurrents.
6 October 2014 at 03:06 #33111@janetteb I have so far ignored that reference to becoming president of the US because it kind of flew by and it’s the kind of thing I usually catch up with on rewatching. But I’m pretty sure she can’t become president of the US without having been born there. Unless she was born there for some reason and moved back to the UK, I suppose. Or unless the show is implying that the rule will be changed.
As for the Doctor learning to apologize for being wrong, he would first have to believe that he was wrong. Which in this case, he clearly doesn’t. That may change.
6 October 2014 at 02:57 #33110@purofilion Hee hee. Yes, Arbutus Jr. was talking about that recently too. What would we do without our kids to tell us how things actually work! 🙂
@pedant If it ever become important I imagine Moff or a future showrunner will make something up. Indeed. Like running out of regenerations. Whether it means anything to regenerate into a face that has been on the show before. Things like that. 😉
@glenisterm I will freely admit that I don’t let science mistakes get in the way of my enjoyment of a story that I like for its own sake. I also get that this is a deal breaker for some others. But anyone willing to cite Bill Nye the Science Guy on this or any Forum gets a thumbs up from me.
6 October 2014 at 01:05 #33102@scaryb I hadn’t seen your latest when I posted the above. I absolutely agree with what you are saying here about Clara. And it’s a good point about Courtney, I noted that at the time when he sent Clara off to “get herself and Courtney safe”, and remember thinking, “See? Not so bad!” I had forgotten it.
6 October 2014 at 01:01 #33100@serahni I really enjoyed what you had to say about the Doctor’s behaviour and Clara’s reaction to it. You’re right, I don’t think that Clara is altogether enjoying this new, less effusive Doctor. The previous incarnation made much of her, calling her “my impossible girl” and acting in various dramatic ways to save her life. This one makes rude remarks about her looks, disapproves of her boyfriend, and shows up on his own schedule, not hers.
But as you say, I don’t think this Doctor is as new a man as it seems on the surface. The writers have been at pains to include actions, attitudes, and actual lines that recall earlier Doctors. And a lot of the key underlying elements of the Doctor’s character are still here. We saw it this time in his unhesitating leap into the abyss, in his response to the new life he discovered, and in his ability to talk his way out of trouble by the force of his personality. And yes, Clara was in his time stream, but I’m not convinced that she really properly remembers any of that, so I don’t think it would help her here.
6 October 2014 at 00:51 #33097@scaryb I confess I was more caught up by the Doctor’s joyous expression when we learned about the egg, to be thinking rationally about whether it was believable as an egg. I loved how thrilled he was.
The lights going out was a shockingly depressing moment. You’re right. And maybe that was the point of including the “vote”.
6 October 2014 at 00:48 #33095@jimthefish Yes. A lot of people seem to be of the opinion that the Doctor is somehow “crossing the line” in this episode. Interestingly, the part of his behaviour that I found dismaying was his treatment of Courtney, and while I could see that Clara was upset by that, I don’t think she brought it up in the confrontation scene. She was upset about being left alone to choose. And honestly, I actually had no problem with that. I could understand the Doctor feeling as if this were a time that humans had to decide for themselves their course of action. She was also angry because she felt he hadn’t been honest with her. But he said that he had been honest, so I guess it is for us to decide whether or not we believe him.
She was clearly upset and angry with the Doctor, but it was made clear by Danny that despite her words, she isn’t really done with him yet. Although Danny seems to feel that she will be (and I suppose I do too). But when it comes, I hope that it will be for a better reason. As Danny says, when she’s not angry anymore.
5 October 2014 at 21:45 #33068And another one, just for fun.
5 October 2014 at 21:20 #33066Hi, @dickiebow! What a great name, I loved that line. 🙂 Like you, I watched most of the revived series in one big blast, and suddenly in Series 7, found myself having to wait for things to happen, avoid spoilers, and so on. Big difference in how you absorb things. I am on the west coast (in Canada) and watch the show on iTunes, so don’t get to see it until Sunday morning and as a result, am usually one of the last ones to the party.
By the we saw Matt Smith’s departure I was pretty happily anticipating Capaldi, as I am an old school fan and really enjoyed the older, more acerbic incarnations. But I thought Eleven was really lovely, enjoyed him immensely, and also found Time of the Doctor pretty emotional. I agree, the cracker poem made me cry as well. And I think it says worlds for Matt Smith’s abilities that he could make the “death” of Handles so touching! Also, contrived it may have been, but when the bow tie fell to the ground I absolutely lost it.
This is a brilliant image: Peter Capaldi emerges looking like some kind of angry bird of prey. He did, didn’t he?
5 October 2014 at 21:03 #33064@juniperfish I’m not so sure that the Doctor’s ambivalence about his own morality comes from Time War at this point. I wonder if it’s a more general angst related to living a long time and having had more power than most of those around you. As PhaseShift says: The few Time Lords we’ve seen who have had extended life (Rasillon, The Master) were a bit …well …odd. A tendency to wear their underpants on their head and proclaim themselves masters of the Universe. You know the score.
The Doctor may well be thinking along these lines too.
5 October 2014 at 20:56 #33063Random thoughts about random comments:
@juniperfish Yes, I loved the moment where the president is revealed to be a “she”, and then a moment later, the Doctor refers to “womankind”. 🙂
@apopheniac Was is just me who saw them slo-mo running and thought, sigh? No, I had exactly the same thought. That felt contrived and unnecessary to me.
@pedant I thought of the space whale as well. There was a similar moral decision involved in that story.
@janetteb Yes, what was the Doctor looking for at the end?
@purofilion “This is ground control.” Yes! I too was awaiting Major Tom. And great story about your father and the bird. Reminds me of my stepfather in Alberta trying to pot Richardson ground squirrels with a BB gun. Traps are just too easy for some people.
@phileasf Great parallel with Pyramids of Mars. I don’t think that the two views of time travel are irreconcilable, actually. In choosing to leave 1911 without stopping Sutehk, they created one timeline, and by going back and defeating him, they created another.
@irisess Welcome! (Nice fez.) Do you really have an English Gramma, that needs to be excused? What did she do wrong? (Sorry, so sorry! Joke!) Personally, I am enjoying Clara more in this series than I did in the last. But it’s true that she and the Doctor are often snarky with one another. Ultimately, Clara may never get over the Doctor’s regeneration. It’s entirely possible that he will never be her Doctor. Which, regardless of Madame Vastra’s attitude, I could completely understand.
5 October 2014 at 20:43 #33062@badwulf I agree that I wasn’t quite sure about the point of letting humanity vote and then overriding the decision. As a few people have pointed out, they could only see half the planet, for one thing. And frankly, it was predictable that the majority would say “kill it”. I probably would too, if this were real life. It might have been better to let them make the decision without consulting humanity first.
But @bluesqueakpip suggests: “I think what the episode may have been trying to hint at is that ‘the moral decision’ and ‘what everyone wants to do’ are not necessarily the same thing.” This is certainly a possibility, although I’m not sure how successfully the message comes through. But I liked this thought as well: “It’s always wrong. It’s wrong when the Doctor does it, it’s wrong when Kate Stewart is prepared to do it, and it’s wrong when it’s a baby dragon and the entire world wants to do it.”
As for a “rational external entity” making the choice, I’m not so sure that the Doctor’s decision would be more rational. Just different. @phileasf said: “In The Caretaker, the Doctor was criticised for being an officer. In Kill the Moon Clara wants him to be more like an officer and remove her need to exercise judgment and make choices.” This is an excellent point.
@miapatrick said: “But by now the Doctor has been with us enough, been here enough, to have a stake in the matter.” I think this Doctor is deliberately trying to take a step back. He has decided that, fondness for humanity notwithstanding, these are not his people, and in this case, it’s not his choice to make. However, you also said this: “And then the choice is made by a person who has the best chance pretty much in the whole world of surviving whatever happens.” I think, on reflection, that I would have been happier had the astronaut made the decision to abort, based perhaps on Clara’s certainty, rather than Clara interfering and pushing the button herself.
5 October 2014 at 20:31 #33061Wow. So many great and interesting comments, I’m not sure how to go about responding to all of them. And as usual, because I’m a bit late in joining, some of my initial responses are rendered irrelevant by what comes later. But I’ll have a go.
@badwulf, I was going ask you to explain your problems with the science, not being “sciency” myself, but you and others have done that really well. I do have sympathy for the issue of implausible explanations that are actually unnecessary, but tend to have a relaxed attitude toward the use of “scientism” (great term!). As @bluesqueakpip’s list suggests, we all have our own areas of touchiness. For some of us, it’s “For heaven’s sake get the science right!” For some of us it’s historical anachronisms, for some of us it’s “believable” character behaviour, and so on. Fair enough, actually.
@mtgradwell As a historian myself, I’m not sure it’s fair to state that a problem with history is less of a problem than one of physics. It just bothers you less. The history ones tend to bug me, although I’ll admit that I chose not to be bothered with Robots of Sherwood, because I enjoyed it so much, and because I felt that the parable they were trying to create excused the lack of realism. I didn’t realize that until the very end, though, so I was prepared to be pretty irritated with the suggestion that Robin and his Merry Men all existed exactly the way the stories portray them. I think this is related to @pedant’s Rule of Cool, which is a principle I have always espoused, although I hadn’t seen it spelled out before.
I was going to send out this challenge to @BonkersTheorists. Can you come up with explanations for the “bad science” in this episode? And then, I saw this, from @phileasf: This, by the way, explains everything: the universe was rebooted from Amy’s memories, so any implausibilities must result from her lack of knowledge of science. Well done! Can there be a medal?
5 October 2014 at 16:55 #33051Wow. That was exciting. Giant spiders, seriously, a bit of a “thing” for me, so there were a couple of really scary moments. I will need a rewatch, so much happened so fast. A few things stand out for the moment:
Right after they landed on the moon and met the astronaut (she was great, btw), the juxtaposition of the Doctor’s “banter” with the very ominous background music was interesting.
Callback to what we were talking about the other day, when Clara said something like “Tell me that wasn’t alive?”, and the Doctor said, “I could but it wouldn’t make it true.” The Doctor doesn’t lie for comfort.
When I say run, run! 🙂
When Clara said that she knew the moon didn’t blow up because there was still a moon in the future, I could only think that Clara has some things to learn about parallel timelines!
You could see Clara’s disenchantment with the Doctor growing throughout the episode. And at the end, her “I’m really done with him” business sounded so much like someone who “doth protest too much” that I was really pleased that Danny called it as well. I liked Danny in his short scene, I was happy that Clara had him to talk to. I’m looking forward to learning more about his “really bad day”. I’m not sure yet whether I think Clara’s anger with the Doctor is fair or not. I was definitely on her side regarding his cavalier treatment of Courtney. Not sure yet about the rest of it. Interesting episode, lots to think about.
5 October 2014 at 06:17 #33022@purofilion You have convinced me. I will find myself something of HM’s and dive in. 🙂 For now, off to bed and in the morning, the Doctor will be waiting, TARDIS and all, to take me to the moon. Enjoy your trip this evening, and hopefully the sleep-in will leave you fit for the conductors. See you on the other side! oo
5 October 2014 at 04:46 #33017@purofilion Moving into the pub as you suggest, we’ve gotten well away from The Caretaker. Supper has been cooked (by Mr. Arbutus) and eaten by all, pasta with creamy veggie sauce and extremely garlicky garlic toasts! Now some Talisker is being enjoyed prior to the drinking of tea. (Arbutus Jr. is skipping straight to the tea.) I’ve put some on some lovely early Tudor polyphony (inspired by the Hilary Mantel conversation) to go with the whisky (inspired by our Mr. Capaldi).
I have not yet read Bring Up the Bodies, though I should do so before the next one comes out and she wins yet another Booker! I confess I haven’t read any of Mantel’s other books, but some of them look quite interesting. I wasn’t aware of her prior to Wolf Hall, which interested me because of the setting: early 16th century is fascinatingly transitional, neither medieval nor modern. But then I didn’t read it for a long time because suddenly, everyone was reading it, and I occasionally get cranky that way. When she won the second Booker, I thought, okay, I guess I’d better get on with it! 🙂 I agree that she pulls off the specifics of the time and dicey politics really well, while still creating accessible characters.
5 October 2014 at 02:56 #33002@purofilion It’s not too late here to talk about tense- only around 6:30, and I don’t get my next episode until Sunday morning. 🙁 I must restate that I thought Wolf Hall was brilliant in many ways, fabulous characterization and believable dialogue. As a history geek, it annoys me when the conversation is either anachronistic or too preciously “historic”. There’s a balance to be found and Mantel did so beautifully. And the period is a fascinating one that gets less attention than it should. But for me the problem was that whenever the story moved away from dialogue, that tense thing kept jumping out at me and taking me out of the moment, as it were. I realize that this is my problem rather than the writer’s; but there it is.
@badwulf And I have found out (to my more edumacated wife’s chagrin) that what I tend to like does have a preponderence of exploding spaceships. This is a charming statement. Nothing wrong with exploding spaceships. Or, for that matter, novels written in the present tense. Or the fine balance of classical music, 60’s and 70’s rock, and contemporary pop that is heard daily by the three sets of ears in the Arbutus household. As Mr. Arbutus likes to say, “It’s all good.”
I must say, this has now got me thinking about Missy with more interest than I have for awhile. I still think that she is a person, but how is she “saving” all these dead people, and what does she want with them? We have seen people “saved” to the hard drive of the Library, and people “kidnapped” by the wifi, so I think it must be something similar. But who is her helper, and does she have more of them, and what is being done to/with the “saved”?
4 October 2014 at 20:54 #32957@spider tv and films have a LOT to answer for about what my management think is actually possible to do with image processing! I have a hilarious image of management demanding something, you saying, “Sorry, not technically possible,” and them replying, “But… but… they did it on Doctor Who!”
And very good point by the way about Clara’s response to the “distract it” order. It didn’t jump out at me while watching, but as you say, she would normally respond by doing something, even if the something was inadequate or lame. An inelegant setup, I agree.
And your suggestion that Missy is taking lots of people that we don’t see hadn’t occurred to me, but clearly you’re right that the scope of her “heaven” is much greater than we had realized. This made me wonder again about her initial remarks about the Doctor. Could the “my boyfriend” label suggest that she likes him because death follows him so closely, and he and death could be said to have an intimate relationship? This sort of idea, of death as a lover, has been used before in literary imagery; I’m sure some of the literary-minded folk around here could be more specific about that.
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