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@whisht @janetteb   If we are going with a crossword analogy now, I must admit that I get the easy bits done and usually give up, until next week when the answers are given. And this is in fact eerily similar to my approach to bonkers theorizing as well. So apparently the analogy works.

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@janetteb

I don’t know about that! I still think of Australia as a largely kindly nation. Just yesterday, my son was saying that outside of Canada, he really could only imagine living in Australia, New Zealand, or a Scandinavian country!  🙂  But every place has its ups and downs; we have Stephen Harper currently whose idea of democracy is that everyone gets a voice as long as it is singing his tune! But the wheel will turn, sooner or later, it always does.

As to our British friends, I hope that everyone will be able to move forward (and not backward) from this moment. It’s a heartbreak for all those many “yes” supporters, but I don’t think they’ve achieved nothing. But mending fences within the country, and continuing to improve things within the Union, will be the next challenge, I suppose. Two wonderful cultures, and lots of thoughtful people on both sides of the border, can hopefully accomplish that!

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@idiotsavon      Those Mr. Men reviews are perfect. Some people are just really, really funny!

@spider   Maybe it’s the iron that’s the fixed point! I might just be using that excuse next time the shirts are piling up. Because, frankly, people in general confer too much meaning on pressed shirts that really, just isn’t there.

So far, I must say that Moffat has been ringing all the bells for me: new Doctor less “user friendly” but both poignant and hilarious; story arc low key but still intriguing; inappropriate snogging kept out of Doctor/companion relationship; nice balance between “character” stories and what one of my medieval musician friends calls “drums and fun”; lots of great little moments with me going “YES!”. I have probably left more good bits out. I am loving this series!  🙂

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@drben   On the whole, I think you’re probably right. The “old age” thing occurred to me as I was writing, and I threw it in because, well, bonkers, and so on.   🙂

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@oblique    I agree that After Gap Who has often felt rushed to me as well. Personally, I prefer the more leisurely pace of old (but I know that not everyone would agree with me on this!) But I do think that Moffat and the other writers are well aware of the fandom’s love of picking things apart and looking for clues, and I’m sure that many of these “clues” and “misdirections” are quite deliberate. This is the new way of watching TV, of course, and it applies to the fans of many different shows. Back in the day, people didn’t watch TV in the same way, because, with a few exceptions, there weren’t story arcs as we have now. That started in the eighties, for the most part, at least in North America.

It has taken a bit of getting used to, for me, and I tend to prefer the less conspicuous arc of the type that we seem to be getting here, over the heavier-handed variety (Season Six, for instance, where you really couldn’t miss any episodes if you wanted it to make sense). I suspect that this has been a deliberate attempt on Moffat’s part to make everyone happy. (Not sure that will ever work!) Here, I can enjoy the stories on their own merits (or not, as the case might be). I can have fun hyper-analyzing every camera angle if I like, or just watch the story and go, “Hey, wasn’t Capaldi great in that scene?” and “Funny lines in that one” and so on.

Actually, I usually do both.   🙂

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@wcasey5   Yes, I’m aware of that scene, but that’s what I meant by not definitive. It suggests he’s still getting used to his looks, but that doesn’t mean that as @drben says, he hasn’t had a few adventures already. We know that he regenerated alone in the TARDIS, but we have no idea what happened next. When Rose met him, he was already in the middle of a “thing”, and may have been up to a certain amount, without having had loads of time to look in mirrors and so on. Personally, I think they deliberately left that point vague by introducing Clive and the Doctor sightings, to leave possibilities open for future stories and so on. But Nine’s regeneration is not the point, really, except to say that it’s possible that he could have had a rough time learning to know himself before meeting Rose. As Twelve is having a rough time now.

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@drben    That’s a really good point about preconceived notions playing out in an unexpected way. And yes, it has been suggested that we might also be making assumptions about Missy (although I would argue that if so, we have been deliberately misdirected through the way she was written and played in her first appearance).

Also, if the Doctor unwittingly traded his soul for a new regenerative cycle, that would explain why he seems to be searching so hard for it now (“am I a good man”, etc.). He’s certainly taking a longer time about figuring out “who he is” than previous regenerations have done.

Of course, there is also the question of whether a thirteenth regeneration (something that wouldn’t normally happen) would be more difficult than a normal one, and whether future regenerations will always be this hard, or whether it’s just that there has been, as some have suggested, a “reset”. There’s also this: The Eleventh Doctor is one of the very few incarnations to die of old age, rather than misadventure of some kind. The War Doctor seems to have done so as well, and of course, we were not witness to Nine’s beginnings. (Many have assumed that he met Rose very quickly after regeneration, but we don’t have what I would call hard evidence that he was new out of the box!) The First Doctor’s regen was also triggered by age, but he was so early on in the cycle that it could perhaps be argued that the age of the body didn’t matter as much.

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@idiotsavon     Can I just say, this is in its entirety the best post I have read in ages?

In my view, the contrast between Faust and UrFaust suggests that, while the self-sacrificial characters appear to have been saved, they have in reality been damned. Missy is clearly Faust (or maybe Goethe; not really clear on that point– thoughts?).

But no; if the Doctor is a Faust character, perhaps Missy is in fact the devil, and her Nether Regions are exactly that, and Gretchen et al have indeed gone to hell. Maybe the Doctor will have to save them from the devil with some really great fiddle playing? Or would it be the pipes, in his case? (Not the spoons, we’ve moved on.)

I’m feeling a bit giddy now, I don’t usually guess any of the answers!

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@handles    No damage! I will just say a couple of quick things more on this, because I truly don’t wish to offend you or anyone. But, like @purofilion and @janetteb, I live in a small and usually inoffensive country that is misunderstood by certain people (not all people) from a larger, more powerful one, who can’t be bothered to learn the facts. I will add here (as puro did earlier) that of course we have people like that here, too. But you have a big country… there are so many more of you! So it can get a little overwhelming when the only thing some people know about Canada is that it snows “all the time”, we like hockey (true, but we like other things too), and that Rob Ford and Justin Bieber come from here (unfortunately, also true; but we also provided James Cameron, Seth Rogen, and so on).

I have lived an hour from the border all my life, and have traveled to the States numerous times, but most of what I know about the country doesn’t come from that. My husband is American and grew up in several parts of the country, and I get lots of my understanding from him and his experiences. Also I am something of a newsaholic since the arrival of the internet– hurray for the NYTimes and the BBC online! ☺ But I don’t claim to know everything. I think I could list off all 50 states, but not all their capitals or governers (some of the noisier ones, and Washington because they are our neighbour). I can impress my son by naming a lot of sports teams, but I draw the line at players (except for Derek Jeter and Tom Brady 🙂 )

Please remember that this is not directed at you! Just some random thoughts relating to some of the three billion people living to the south of me.  🙂  Peace.

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K, this was meant to go here, not where I put it, but I don’t see how to remove a wrongly posted post! But here it is again, in the right place this time.

@phaseshift (and everyone)       Sorry about the hijacked topic, won’t happen again! Sometimes without our quite realizing it, a small exchange suddenly becomes a conversation.

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@phaseshift (and everyone)       Sorry about the hijacked topic, won’t happen again! Sometimes without our quite realizing it, a small exchange suddenly becomes a conversation.

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Great stuff here, from the head-bangy ones to the pop, punk, and electronica. And Johnny Cash!  🙂  @handles, I thought of Aliens Exist too, but I was going more with general fear theme than the more specific monster one. @purofilion, I’m sending the Minecraft one on to my son, it’s quite nicely done, isn’t it? (And you know, if you google Minecraft Doctor Who, there is some rather hilarious stuff out there.)

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@drben     I have always assumed that the TARDIS does indeed do the heavy lifting in that regard. But Orson Pink is of course another matter, and there are lots of questions there!

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@thebrainofmoffat     That is an interesting idea, and opens up area for further speculation about what regeneration energy actually is.  Is it like a blood transfusion? And what might it do if you get the wrong kind?

@serahni    Wow, that’s a workload! Hope the performances went well. Yes, it’s true that some fans have a harder time letting go. Me, I have my favourites, but I move on (as the Doctor himself has said). But I’m reminded of the same issue amongst James Bond fans. Some have their favourites. Others simply have no time for any Bond other than their Bond. Period. Worst Bond ever, etc. (And for every Connery purist out there, there seems to be someone who thought the early films were just a bore compared to insert name here‘s version.)

@thommck    I suppose it’s possible (though not probable, I image) that UV paint was all he had?

@drben    I’m pretty sure that if you got in a stationary time capsule that took you to the end of time, that the universe would have moved around you. Hence the completely different location. That’s why a successful time machine would have to work like a TARDIS, in that you would choose the position in time and space. A stationary capsule wouldn’t work on the “long haul” flights, as it were. And of course, they only meant for to move the equivalent of a single stop down the line!

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@blenkinsopthebrave     Well, if you have to be locked up anywhere, you picked the right spot! Glad you’re out, though.

@wolfweed, I love Battlefield. It seems to get a bad rap from a lot of people, but it’s always been one of my favourites. I always thought it was a better outing for the Brig than Mawdryn Undead, and Jean Marsh was fab. Seriously considering changing my backup vote!

 

 

 

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I would also add, to those that are unhappy with Clara once again being so super-important in the Doctor’s life, that we don’t have any real evidence that her appearance at the moment actually changed his future. We don’t know that he wouldn’t have gone on in any case to the Academy, and so on. We can see it as having made a difference if we choose to, or not. Actually, as people have been saying, there are a lot of things going on in this episode that can be interpreted in different ways. So I would say, if you are unhappy with Clara having influenced the Doctor in his childhood, then she didn’t! She arguably influenced him in the present, in helping to see that the monsters were in his mind (maybe!), but that’s not destiny, that’s just being a friend.

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@mudlark   Nice idea regarding the monsters as projections of the Doctor’s mind!

It’s true that this kind of inward-looking story often seems very divisive. The other day I read comments on another forum about Midnight, and many people hated that episode. Personally, I loved it, possibly my favourite RTD episode ever. I think the reason that Blink is less divisive is because, while also beautifully done, it is less introspective. There is an identifiable (and very cool) monster, a bit of timey-wimey stuff, and some very nice guest performances. Easy to love. But I have read people criticize Listen for being boring, for lack of an actual monster, and for daring to add a tiny, teeny bit to the Doctor’s back story (apparently this is Moffat “messing with the continuity”).

But it’s all part of the greater problem that some people have understanding that their opinion is only their opinion, not fact. They say “worst story ever” or “Moffat has to go”, rather than acknowledging “this kind of story doesn’t appeal to me”. It’s a pet peeve of mine, and I have even read arguments in which someone disputes someone else’s view that “the story sucked” and the original poster comes back with “I am giving my opinion”. No they’re not; they’re stating it as fact. I’m pretty religious about trying to use “I thought” or “I felt” or similar words, pedantic as that seems, because I really really don’t want to dismiss someone else’s right to hate something I loved, or vice versa! But a lot of people don’t get how important those extra few words are. I think there would be less angst on the internet generally (not just on fan forums) if they did.

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@bluesqueakpip    I love the idea that the chalkboard is for him to work out those calculations for his appearance in DotD. I wonder if, at some point, he will just stop doing it, and then we will know it has been done!

@phileasf   Great spot on the extra chair/Rupert/Orson bit. And those are some very powerful childhood fears. Mine (as I think I have posted earlier) was a bedroom floor covered with spiders. Oh, they were very real.

@brewski   Great info about “Rupert” and incompetent officers, and it absolutely explains that response (because you’re right, it was the wrong response). But I still think that Rupert = Danny, because of Dan the Soldier Man. (Pink herring indeed!)

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I have also wondered about @blenkinsopthebrave, ever since he didn’t come on to post his thoughts about “Mark of the Rani” last month. Concerned thoughts going out over the WiFi!

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@geoffers     Hee hee. I guess the problem is there are many different kinds of triangle! In this case, it wasn’t really a sharing of information that we didn’t have, which I realized as soon as I watched. It just removed doubt about an issue that they clearly hadn’t expected us to question. And it only confirmed what I had already believed in any case.

@purofilion    Beautifully put! I think this story was a bit like a work of art, where you don’t recognize the many layers of perfection until you start to study it.

@bluesqueakpip     the last person you’d give a family heirloom to is the person who’s given/left it to you in the first place     This does make sense. Although Orson might not know the problems associated with two versions of Dan in one place. However, he does as you say know something, and it could well be more than the obvious.

@pedant    Two men, both once frightened and lonely children, reflected in each other through the eyes of a kind, but strong and decisive, teacher.      This is a lovely image!

@scaryb    Fully agree with both praise of @bluesqueakpip’s lovely line, and preference for the jumper (sweater in my world) over the white shirt. And yes, I have forgotten boatloads of experiences from forty years ago, never mind two thousand!

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@xad4    @fatmaninabox     Wow! Although they could be the same handwriting (the S’s look similar), but definitely not the same version. So what’s going on here? Bonkers theories, anyone?

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@wcasey5    Actually, I’m good with “Awesome Pink”. More people should name their kids Awesome.   🙂

@janetteb    At times it seems that Capaldi is achieving what Colin Baker wanted to do, to make his Doctor more alien, clumsy at times, not responding in the way a human would.     Yes. It’s interesting really. Back before the series began, when people were busily anticipating a “darker Doctor”, Six often came up. But I don’t actually see much of Six in Capaldi’s Doctor, other than maybe the tendency to insult people. I also felt that Matt Smith was creating a more alien Doctor than his predecessor, but as time went on, I started feeling that difference less. There were lots of wonderful moments in Series 5 where I remember thinking, wow, very non-human now. But I think he got more human later on, as he grew more overtly attached to Amy and Rory, and various other friends. At the end, he was begging Amy not to leave him. Remember Four dropping off Sarah Jane in Aberdeen or wherever it was, with barely a goodbye? And leaving Leela on Gallifrey, unwillingly to admit that he would miss her until she could no longer hear him? I can’t see Twelve wearing his heart on his sleeve for any companion. (As a small boy of my acquaintance would say, he is “not a hugging and kissing boy”!)

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@geoffers     I actually wasn’t going to watch this week’s Doctor Who Extra at first, having been given to understand that it contained what might be construed as spoilers. I have a certain amount of impatience with information that is shared not through actual episodes, but through leaks (the deleted beheading scene) or chatty writers (the Doctor’s “mother”). In my view, if it can’t be shown to us in-story, then get rid of it.

But I did decide to watch, and I realize that in fact, the problem with it is that they included things quite innocently, apparently never dreaming that we would question what Moffat appears to be showing us. Here I would like to quote Clara: “Have you met you?” Fandom questions and re-questions just about everything he shows us, for obvious reasons. I now feel a little bit like the person being shown a shape and asked “What is it?”, and after agonizing over all the possibilities, I’m told, “It’s a triangle.”  🙂

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@nick1235   In this context, there is no “dumb”, only “bonkers”!  Carry on.

@wcasey5    Sorry, I don’t see a mature leg there. If that leg belonged to an adult, said adult has considerably less hair than my fifteen year old son! 🙂

@spider    I think that if there is no monster, then the Doctor was hurt either by flying debris or possibly banging his head on something as he tried to hang on. Or the monster did it. Personally, I prefer the no-monster view, but this is based not on logic but on poetry.   🙂

@purofilion    Yes, I can’t believe that the wide face remark is a coincidence, although I loved how he tied in to his earlier comment about having three mirrors!

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Some great soundtrack suggestions here. I get to call once again on one of my favourite bands, the awesome Cat Empire.

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Well. I have finally had another go at this, and yes, awesome. No bonkers theories, but a lot of random thoughts about things I loved.

First, the Doctor. He really is the same Doctor in all the important ways. He keeps walking into Clara’s life, completely self-absorbed. “I need you, for a thing.” This is not new. He still exhibits that dangerous compulsion to explore the heart of a mystery, that is quintessentially the Doctor. He discusses his theory and his plan with scary intensity and a manic smile. And his expression when he unlocks the door says that he can’t wait to see what’s on the other side. Despite being terrified. “You’re an idiot.”  “I know.”

Some people have said he is not funny, I don’t agree. He’s very dry, which I enjoy. “Have you seen the size of human brains? They’re hilarious!” And despite his sometimes unfortunate bluntness (he’s a big grey haired stick insect!!!!!!!), he still has, at heart, a great way with children. Wally isn’t in every book! “Well, that’s a few years of my life I’ll be needing back.”

And Clara. We realize here that she can be every bit as socially inept as the Doctor. When she blurted out “Rupert Pink” I just … lost it. Really? You traveled back in time to fix this, and you blow it a second time? Seriously. I must say, though, I loved her dress. And she said this, to Rupert: “It’s not a plan, it’s a thing.”   Eleven said this! “It’s like a plan, but with more greatness!” I wish I could remember when he said it, whether it was to her, because I have the idea that it predated her, as a … thing.  🙂

And the story. Brilliant. We are presented with an alternate explanation for everything that happens, and it is up to us to decide which is correct. There is no way of knowing what was under that blanket, we could only see a blurred, flesh-toned blob. I loved the flipping of the convention– if you are under the bed, then the scary thing must be on top!

Whatever the truth is, Orson definitely believes Clara to be his ancestor… is this because he knows his great grandmother’s name was Clara, or because he has seen photos, or is he just guessing because she is a time traveler and because the Doctor thought they must be connected?

When Clara comes back into the TARDIS to announce that the whole problem is just a time lord afraid of the dark, the Doctor’s response is wonderful. I think he guesses immediately where they are. It’s in his eyes, his voice, his intense expression. Her “do as you’re told” echoes his, and he understands that she is telling him something he must do, just as he told her earlier. Imagine knowing that he is home, on the Gallifrey of his youth, and he can’t go out. But there is a wonderful look on his face at the end, when Clara has gone back to Danny, and he seems to be remembering the words she spoke to him long ago, that he had (mostly) forgotten.

I really like this Doctor. I don’t find him dark or unkind. To me, he feels old,  clever, capable of dry humour or silliness, arrogant and abrupt, impulsive and impatient… in short, the Doctor. Someone on the Guardian blog called him “amoral and uncaring” (meaning it as a good thing, to be fair). But I really can’t agree with that. I don’t think he is amoral at all, but the way in which he applies his morality to specific circumstances has certainly changed. Nor is he uncaring, he has demonstrated that already. He is brusque certainly, and emotionally distant (not a hugging person!). In that, he reminds me of earlier Doctors including Hartnell, Tom Baker, and Eccleston. He doesn’t waste time agonizing over things that can’t be changed, and to be honest, I don’t mind this in a two thousand-year-old alien time traveller!   🙂

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@thebrainofmoffat  (love that!)   @thommck

I don’t think the Doctor was thinking it through. Clara was trying to tell him that she got distracted, he didn’t want to hear it. If he was so uberfocused on his plan as to ignore her statement that she had never been to this place, he certainly wasn’t taking the time to think logically about what he knew about her.

The “family stuff” could also have been about adoptive or foster relatives, or even blood relations who couldn’t look after young Danny during that period. We only saw one snippet of his life, he might not have been long in that children’s home.

@phileasf    Orson as future Danny is a great idea.

@hunterl   That’s easy! The soldier has two time streams.  😉

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@nick1235     Yes, we are officially bilingual here, French and English, but most of the native French speakers are in the east, not as many here. I learned in school and do okay, but haven’t had enough chance to really use it to get fluent. My son is learning in school now, so I am relearning some of the things I have forgotten!  🙂  I agree that it is fun and helpful to watch films in their original language, with subtitles to help. When you see things that have been overdubbed in another language, it often looks very silly, because the actors are clearly saying something different than what you hear!

I love your positive attitude about Doctor Who and all the different doctors and complicated stories! I feel the same way, there has always been something to like about every doctor, and almost all the stories. It’s just good fun. Since I started reading this forum I have enjoyed thinking about the complicated story lines in ways that I probably wouldn’t have on my own. People here have very interesting minds!

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@purofilion    Yes, more circular time lines, paper and arrows definitely required! I am now picturing you at the kitchen table with pencil, Twelfth Doctor like, the polar opposite of @bluesqueakpip‘s bank of computer screens flashing arcane Who-knowledge (much more Eleven).  🙂  It all works. (I wonder if the Twelfth Doctor has an abacus somewhere in the control room?)

Clara doesn’t seem to have explained any aspect of Danny to the Doctor, present or past. But I loved that the Doctor wanted to check out his “prospects”. I only hope that when he finally meets Danny, he won’t make any remarks about Danny taking on an aging woman, or anything of that sort! Not to mention an “egomaniac, needy game-player”!  😀

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@nick1235    Oh, no, they will just get up in the morning to find out what has been going on while they slept (usually much less than happens while we sleep!). It’s rather quiet this evening (evening for me); there are a number of Australians and Americans that sometimes get going at this time, and things can get lively.

As for early episodes, I don’t know about subtitled ones. Dailymotion has a lot of stuff, but not many with subtitles, and those are usually Spanish (I think). Maybe you would find something on Asian sites? I can sympathize about watching things in other languages: supposedly I speak French, but I could never get through a French film with subtitles!

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Hi, @nick1235! Welcome to the Pacific Rim watch of the Doctor Who Forum. We carry the torch while the British are asleep. (Most of them, anyway. Occasionally, a night owl shows up and surprises us all!) I am across the Pacific from you, in Vancouver.

I’m with you, I love the new Doctor. I connected with him instantly, because he reminds me of many of the Doctors from earlier eras of the show, which I used to watch when I was younger. Such a great show that attracts fans from all over the world.

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@skywalkerwho    God (aka Moffat)    Love this!  🙂

I agree that it isn’t especially difficult to explain both how the TARDIS could get to Gallifrey and how the Daleks could not. The  Doctor himself doesn’t seem to have realized that it was possible, so why would the Daleks or anyone else?

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@ardaraith    Very cool theory. Those points would also support what a few people have suggested, that Clara was somehow created by or is a manifestation of the TARDIS. But a TARDIS connection seems perfectly believable to me.

@purofilion     I think Capaldi’s accent thickens up at certain times. Definitely he played it up in the alley scene when it first dawned on him: “I’m Scottish!!!” Like he was practising.  🙂  And in moments of high drama, when he is declaiming (so to speak) more, it seems to come across more strongly.

I’m not sure that the Doctor’s experience necessarily engendered the dreams of humans. It seems likely that the young Doctor was already afraid of what might be under the bed, and then Clara came and reinforced it. (I forget who commented that her expression as she realized what she had done was wonderful!) So in that sense, the Doctor shared what is a typical fear of many children– fear of the dark spaces and what might be hiding there. What triggered him to start remembering this fear now, I couldn’t say, but it is clearly an introspective time for him, and maybe more than usually intense. As Eleven said, a whopper?

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@purofilion     (or confusedilion?) I’m interested that you felt Danny was behaving like a “ninny” here, as my irritation was largely directed at Clara! I thought her soldier “joke” was horribly insensitive (I felt the same way about the one in Into the Dalek as well), and didn’t blame him at all for getting shirty with her. But she absolutely redeemed herself with me when she told him afterward that she gets nervous and speaks without thinking (or words to that effect; haven’t had my re-watch yet). Because that bit of self-awareness, honesty, and sincere “mea culpa” defined her as an admirable person in my eyes. There’s very little as difficult as a sincere apology (we mostly seem to get the insincere kind!).

I’m glad Brother Ilion enjoyed that one, sorry that the other Ilions didn’t, but it just shows how this show usually has an episode for every taste! I loved it, but I realized immediately that the relative lack of “moving and doing” would be a problem for some, which is perfectly fair, to be honest.

I am really loving the many ways that this series is channeling BG Who. Someone earlier mentioned the connection between Twelve and Four with the line about Sontarans, which I would never have remembered. And, as Brother Ilion said, the tone of this was in some ways very “old school” Who. I wonder if it’s because Moffat and the other writers are perceiving Capaldi’s doctor as a more “old school” doctor? Because he certainly feels that way to me. And I must admit, I’m loving it!

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I am really interested to hear all your views on this, as I have been following this story pretty closely (I come from a part-Scot background, but have no current connections). As @scaryb and @bluesqueakpip have pointed out, it is like the divorce in which one partner says “I’m done” and walks out, while the other sits in shock. Anger often follows (I have a friend going through this right now, and her ex has been as obstreperous as it is possible to be).

When the Province of Quebec had its referendum a few years back, there were strong views from the rest of the country. Some people were saying “good riddance”, while others made impassioned pleas to the Quebecois for a no vote. “My Canada includes Quebec” was a popular slogan. There is a very different history, of course, but it seems that the emotions were much the same. Much of the debate I am reading from the UK (currency, international relations, citizenship) looks very familiar.

Personally, I held to the view that I didn’t want separation, but if it was clearly what the Quebecois wanted, then it hardly seemed fair to make them stay! In the end, the vote was very close, and there was a lot of bitterness there for awhile, but large numbers of Quebecois seem to have moved on at this point. Scotland seems to be similarly divided, and whichever way it goes, half of the country will be unhappy. I don’t know how you resolve that problem, though! When Newfoundland became the tenth Canadian province in 1948, the yes side won by a pretty thin margin. Many Newfoundlanders are still convinced that confederation was a mistake!

@craig    I wonder whether those in your position will have to fight for the status that they want? We have a group here generally called the “Lost Canadians” whose parents were temporarily in the US at the time of their birth, and for various reasons a small group of them from a certain period fell into a legal crack and lost the Canadian status they had always believed they had. It was only recently resolved, but I believe these people have been given their Canadian citizenship back.

Anyway, I’m glad that this question was brought up here because your thoughts are illuminating, and (as always here) it’s great to see a civil discourse about something that raises so much emotion!

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@geoffers    Well, Doctor Ten did say in DotD that they shouldn’t have been able to get through the time lock, so obviously he didn’t know that it could be done, even by the TARDIS. Eleven (I think) said, “Someone let us through.” (Which also tells us that the War Doctor’s barn was indeed on Gallifrey!) It makes sense to me as well that the TARDIS would be able to do it using Clara’s mind as a steering wheel, but interesting that Doctor didn’t think it was possible!

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@scaryb   I like your thoughts about Clara’s relationships with the two new men in her life.  ☺  Definitely no more turkey cooking for this Doctor! And I too can completely understand her reluctance to be more open with either of them just yet.

@apopheniac    I agree that the really scary moments in this didn’t lead to the same kind of climactic payback as in Midnight and Blink. But I felt that the psychological payback in the “He’ll never make a Time Lord” line more than made up for that. It went a different place than the earlier episodes, and I was okay with that. I really like your comment about Clara and the Doctor (reluctantly) following each other’s orders because of trust, because that felt very true to me. I really liked the moment where the Doctor shouted at Clara, because to me it said that there is a limit to the depth of danger into which he is willing to take her. This felt responsible and admirable to me, and she has shown such a willingness to risk her life in the past, that it would have taken an extreme reaction to tell her that he is no longer willing to let her do that for him. Perhaps this is one of the “mistakes” he wishes to fix?

@saraoswald101   I also believe that it was Gallifrey, and that it was the Doctor that Clara met, because I think that’s why she wouldn’t tell the Doctor what she had seen. And I too have been wondering whether the hidden Gallifrey would enter into this series at any point!

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@bluesqueakpip     I really hope that Clara doesn’t die. But this:      However, merely being dead doesn’t suggest Clara won’t be taking any further part in events. Rory died more times than Kenny, and River was living a busy and active post-death life. Donna got saved.      Hilariously put, and a good point!

@hisdreamer   Welcome!  The cloister bell certainly means significant danger. I guess we are supposed to decide what we think the danger is!

@wolfweed    If I end up watching one more vid review saying this story has a bad plot I shall provide them with a plot – a burial plot…    Hee hee! I hope you post this on the Guardian.   🙂

@fredvelvet   Welcome to you!  Actually, the time lock is mentioned more than once, but I forget the first time. Certainly in the Tennant era and possibly even by Nine, back when the Doctor is talking about the Time War. But what used to bother me was the assumption by many people that the Doctor himself had placed the lock, when that was never stated. I always assumed the the Time Lords themselves placed the lock. But I don’t think that was stated either, to be honest. But the implication was definitely that the Time Lock prevented anyone from accessing Gallifrey’s history and changing things.

@fivefaces   Good point about the bed in The Girl in the Fireplace, and we’ve already had a reference to that story in Deep Breath, so maybe some of the earlier speculation is coming about!

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@mudlark   Yes. There was a year when I would waken in the night, absolutely convinced that the floor around my bed was covered in spiders. It was terrifying. I was six. Eventually, the fear of the dark went away. Nowadays, I only fear tripping on something in our rather cluttered little house (but I still don’t like to get too close to a spider!).

I was actually expecting Clara to tell him that he could (or even would) be a Time Lord, and not to give up. What she did say was better, though.  🙂

@skywalkerwho     Despite the TARDIS having gone there, I don’t think that it would be possible for the Daleks or anyone else to do it the same way. The TARDIS is nothing like any other space craft or time machine. She is sentient, for one thing, and psychic, for another.

@phaseshift    You have nailed my feelings about this episode. Agree, agree, agree.

(BTW, when I first read the word “nethersphere” I immediately thought of my son’s world of Minecraft, where “The Nether” refers to a sort of underground parallel world where a great deal of action seems to take place!)

@cathannabel    I hadn’t thought of school, good idea, but definitely a children’s institution of some kind. They didn’t feel like parents to me.

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@purofilion       I have to stay off the DWF from late Saturday morning (my time) until I can get to watching the episode, usually not until Sunday morning, and occasionally later than that. It’s particularly hard if I’m having a quiet Saturday afternoon or evening, to avoid spoilers! When my son used to follow the Formula One, we could get up at the horrific hour of 5:30 am to watch the race, or we could watch the re broadcast later in the morning. If we chose the latter, I then had to avoid any place on the internet that might have posted a race result. The perils of following European culture from western Canada!

@fletchthe2nd     The Doctor must have written it; Clara said it was his handwriting.

@serahni (and someone else who mentioned this): I think the key to the TARDIS landing on Gallifrey is that she wasn’t being piloted in the normal manner, but via Clara’s subconscious mind. So even the TARDIS might not know where she was or how to get to and from the pocket universe. @rangerdave makes a good point that Gallifrey was technically not in a pocket universe during the Doctor’s childhood, but during the Time War it was timelocked, which I have always understood to mean that no one can access Gallifrey at any point in its timeline. Otherwise, the Doctor could have gone back there at any point, to a time prior to the War. I would expect that the pocket universe would work in much the same way. Otherwise the War would not really have ended.

I think that Clara wouldn’t let the Doctor leave the TARDIS because she didn’t want him to meet himself (in the same way he earlier said that to her).

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Posting a whack of thoughts now even though I may well have to contradict or backtrack shortly, as I haven’t yet read all your thoughts. But I can’t read three whole pages of comments and still keep track of my own!

@juniperfish   Yes, definitely “dad skills”, and believe me, as the mother of a boy who never did fall asleep easily, I was instantly envious of that ability!

@jimbomcmaster   And, well, the Doctor is the Doctor, so he might obsess on his own nightmare in a way that most of us might not, after childhood, when we say, “Oh, yes, I used to be afraid of the dark, but I was just a kid.” And this Doctor has resolutely removed the “childlike” from his personality (not the “childish”, of course, but that tends not to be a way we behave on purpose!). But the Doctor might well view his own nightmares as more important than just another dream.

Regarding the similarity to Midnight, I’m inclined to think that it’s mainly a theme that’s similar, rather than an actually plot connection: things are scariest when you can’t see them. Midnight was possibly my favourite of the RTD-penned stories.

@bluesqueakpip    I agree that Orson is clearly Danny’s descendent. But Orson seemed to imply that he believed Clara to be his great grandmother, when he gave her the toy soldier. Good spot on the Rupert-Clara connection, I didn’t know the meaning of “Rupert”. Very cool, actually.

@serahni,  Yes, I would think a certain education would have been required to become a Time Lord. And I like your idea that the thing on the bed was the Doctor bringing Dan the Soldier Man full circle!

@bluesqueakpip   @fatmaninabox    However, if this boy is an orphan (which I think is suggested, but certainly not stated), we do know that the Master was not one, because he mentioned his father’s lands in The End of Time. Interestingly, it was strongly implied there that he and the Doctor played together on the Master’s father’s lands, but nothing was said about the Doctor’s home or family.

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Okay. I will have to watch again before I can sensibly comment. I enjoyed every moment of this, and yet, when it had ended, my first thought was that I was afraid to read any comments, because I wondered if other people would feel the same. Because nothing really happens, and yet… so much happens. I was relieved to see the first few comments here and realize that my fears were unnecessary!

It was such a simple story, and yet, so much there… it reminds me of what people liked so much about pre-“Moffat Era” Moffat.

One thought, before I go off and read all your thoughts, and try and watch again… Does anyone else think that the Doctor must have been an orphan?

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@wolfweed    Oh, I love Battlefield. But I fear I’m in the minority, as a lot of people seem to consider it pretty lame. But I thought Nicholas Courtney was lovely, and Jean Marsh was a terrific Morgaine, and I loved the notion of the Doctor as Merlin (and being recognized even with a different face, simply because he was so “Merlinish”!).

@mudlark    Survival has cats, which is in its favour.     I like how you think!  🙂

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Like @handles, I think that it is possible that Missy could be neither evil nor good. Deluded or misguided possibly, or simply crazy as has been suggested before. I also agree that when she tells the cyborg “You’re in the Promised Land,” it’s clearly not the place he was trying to reach. (I do like the notion that Gallifrey could be connected somehow to this place, as in @brewski‘s theory.) It still seems to me that Missy is “saving” people who sacrificed themselves, although as yet I have no idea why.

As to who she is, I like the various ideas that tie her to the TARDIS, as she is clearly linked to the Doctor in some way. I feel pretty sure that she is not the Moment, as I think we are done with that character. I also suspect that the Master is too obvious, and I don’t think Moffat and Co. would go for the obvious. I also remember that he drew the connection in the first episode between the Woman in the Shop and whoever placed the ad, so he clearly wants us to think about these as well. That could be a clue or a misdirection; I’m inclined to think it’s a clue.

Now that I’ve boldly stated all these views, watch for the upcoming episode to start proving them wrong!   🙂

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I would say that, back in the day, McCoy was tied with Pertwee for second place in my heart after Tom Baker. I didn’t even mind the first season goofy version, but the character really came together from his second season. I am going to vote against the trend and put GSitG first, and CoF second on my preferential ballot, just because it’s an unusual kind of story and really shows McCoy at his best. As I recall it, Fenric is a little more Ace-centred. And the Gods of Ragnarok came up recently in regard to Missy! But really, all of the suggested episodes are terrific.

(Boy, that took way too long to write. Up too early with a stuffy head, and more tea will be required to shake off the clouds!)

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@bluesqueakpip     Meanwhile, I introduce people to Kermit the Frog.

Well, you are clearly better connected than most of us. I’d take an introduction to Kermit any day!

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@timeloop    My ramblings about the Clara/Doctor relationship came off of something that @whisht said in response to you, rather than anything you said yourself. And as I said, it really didn’t have any bearing on your theories, just thoughts that occurred to me. The Missy theories are making my head spin a bit! I am inclined to agree that Missy is something/someone not exactly corporeal (or perhaps a construct as some have suggested, either of the TARDIS, the timestream, etc.). Beyond that I cannot guess.

It occurs to me as I write that we may have been given the name “Missy” not just as a clue, but so that we could more easily refer to her in our theorizing!  🙂

I don’t really know what to make of the line about the Doctor’s mistakes. He has certainly made them, that we know. But I’m not sure what he means when he says “It’s time to do something about that.” Does he mean go back on his timestream and change them? Does he mean stop making them? Hard to say.

Also, regarding Gallifrey, I doubt that he has forgotten it. I’m with those who have suggested that all of the equation-writing is connected to finding/rescuing Gallifrey. It inclines me to wonder if those people are right who have suggested that Missy is connected somehow with Gallifrey. Or perhaps the Gallifrey arc will be a longer one?

 

 

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@whisht  You know, I never really believed that Clara was interested in Eleven in “that way” (even after the little “reveal” in TotD). I never got that vibe from her. What I did get was that she treated him a bit like a “guy friend”. My teenage son isn’t especially interested in girls at this point, and last year he hung out a fair bit with a female class mate who treated him very much like Clara treated the Doctor, that is, in a sort of “safe guy” way. She dragged him around here and there, and took a bit of advantage of his easy-going nature at times, which he put up with as he enjoyed getting out and doing things. They drifted apart after awhile, and he was quite clear that they were never anything other than friends. But TotD seemed to set up a similar relationship between the Doctor and Clara, with her asking him to bail her out with the TARDIS, and pretend to be her boyfriend, and so on. A lot of women have male friends that fill this kind of role, usually when for whatever reason, the woman is pretty confident that the guy won’t start hitting on her. I always felt that Clara’s feelings about the Doctor were a bit that way. And now, he has regenerated, and that relationship will definitely not work anymore. This is a new man. It might explain her sudden determination to connect with Danny Pink. It’s like when your guy friend gets married, suddenly he isn’t around to have coffee with anymore and listen to your issues, and get up on a ladder to change your light bulbs for you, or whatever. And maybe you decide that being single is no longer quite as relaxing as it was!  🙂

None of this negates your and @timeloop‘s basic point, of course. It just occurred to me. Personally, I still take the view that his “your boyfriend” line was meant to be ironic, as he had just told her “I’m not your boyfriend.” I am deeply conflicted about Missy, I will admit. In Deep Breath, she seemed psychopathic. In Into the Dalek, she just seemed mysterious. But we saw very much less of her the second time out. But whatever/whoever she turns out to be, I’m sorry in away that the word “boyfriend” has been used by her, whatever it ends up meaning, because it opens up a whole world of issues that we had only just laid to rest!

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Thoughts after second viewing.

I loved the humour in this. I think a lot of the dislike is down to people simply wanting a “serious” episode and this was not that. You could see the direction things were heading from Robin’s first appearance, with the little wink he gave the doctor just before the opening theme. Unlike some viewers, I never felt uncomfortable with Capaldi’s delivery of the humour, or with the positioning of this story so early in the series. There were some lines that I felt were flawlessly delivered.

Robin, after Clara emerges from the TARDIS: “By all the saints… Are there any more in there?”
The Doctor has had enough when his button is sliced off, and after he disposes of the irritation: “Like I said. My box.”
The Doctor again: “I am totally against bantering.” (A judgement on some of his previous selves?)
I loved him getting fed up and blowing up the target!
The Doctor’s face when the arm came off: “Robot!… Now we’re getting somewhere!”
The Doctor’s face when Robin uses his trick against the Sherriff. (@Barnable, I read this as more of an “Oh, well, maybe this guy isn’t so bad” kind of moment.)

Regarding the Sheriff as robot, that was hard to catch. I think it was a mistake to leave it in after removing the critical scene that originally revealed it. Without knowing about the deleted scene I don’t think I would have understood the one brief line, and it actually didn’t matter to the story whether the Sheriff was part robot or not!

“Perhaps others will be heroes in our name.” I loved this line. I have read that there were examples of later rebels or outlaws taking the name “Robin Hood” in order to tie themselves to the myth.

@brewski, I had a similar thought about the arrow, and in general, the irritation that people often feel when the story isn’t scientifically accurate. This story was set in a perfectly lovely middle ages, in which as @mudlark pointed out, the costumes are completely wrong for the 12th century (nice first post, btw), and Alan a Dale played an instrument that would not have been seen in northern Europe for a couple hundred more years. I’m a medievalist and in a serious historical film this would certainly bug me. But I loved this. It wasn’t going for realism, it was meant to be a fairytale. As @serahni said, “It’s silly but I never got a sense that it was trying to be anything else.” And while I love medieval history, art, and music with a deep love, you just can’t beat a good sword fight and some swinging around on ropes!

Regarding some general criticism to the effect that the Doctor has been “sidelined”, to me this is just part of the whole “Old Who” feel to this series. In the past, the Doctor wasn’t always front and centre the whole time. There were times when the companion(s) carried a lot of the action. This rarely felt like a problem to me then, and it doesn’t now.

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@fatmaninabox   Congratulations on level 1!  And this, because it makes me laugh:

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