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4 January 2016 at 02:54 #49979
Just re-watched it. What a brilliant concoction by Gatiss and Moffat!
Have also become aware of the complaints–that is was too confusing. As Holmes would say about those who conflate poetry with truth…idiots!
Two thoughts in light of a re-watch: the third Holmes brother. There is a reference towards the end to a sibling…ie, a gender neutral description. And the previous references to another sibling are also, I believe, gender neutral. So….
Second, my impression, particularly in the sequence at the Reichenbach Falls, is that “Moriarty” (whoever, or whatever, he may be) is akin to Frankenstein’s monster; born of his creator, who can never die.
And then there were the references to “me”, particularly Holmes replying to Watson during his drug-induced mind palace dream, that “I made me”. Is Holmes/Moriarty really…Ashildr…? Oh, hold on, probably too influenced by the Scottish Falsetto Sock Puppets. Must remember: “It’s a totally different program!”
3 January 2016 at 22:27 #499752 January 2016 at 18:49 #49958Wasn’t there a theory doing the rounds during the first series of Sherlock that little Jim Moriarty was just a front for the “real” Moriarty lurking in the shadows? At the time I think Mycroft was the lead contender for the real Moriarty, although, in hindsight it would seem that Gatiss and Moffat had dropped those hints deliberately to keep people guessing.
I even recall briefly flirting myself with the theory that Molly was Jim Moriarty’s sister who would avenge his death. In hindsight, perhaps not…
Anyway, my point is: could little Jim still turn out to have been a front for the real Moriarty?
Rather than linking Moriarty’s death with Sherlock’s fake death, and assuming little Jim could still be alive, as some are doing, should we link little Jim’s death with the death of the abominable bride–ie, both were prepared to die for a cause?
And on another point, it is clear that Moffat and Gatiss do everything for a reason that will pay off later. I find it hard to believe that the fat Mycroft was put there purely for comic effect. Could there be something more to that? Not sure. More thought required.
Oh, and another thing. There have been at least two references in the show so far to a third Holmes brother…
2 January 2016 at 02:00 #49932Why do you torture yourself by going to “that place”?
Surely, life is too short.
2 January 2016 at 01:56 #49931Here’s a thought for “Sherlock” when it returns in 2017: what was on the list that Sherlock gave Mycroft on the plane and that Sherlock had in his mind palace?
1 January 2016 at 23:17 #49925That was outstandingly brilliant, and very funny, and…well, brilliant.
Moffat (and Gatiss) can do “meta” in a fabulous way. Better than David Lynch.
In fact, it was even better than The Scottish Falsetto Sock Puppets…
1 January 2016 at 19:19 #49919The Scottish Falsetto Sock Puppets were brilliant!
“Moriarty from the Goon Show?…”
Wonderful!
29 December 2015 at 18:48 #49823colonials will have to look up Dad’s Army to get that
Australian colonials (of a certain age) have no need to look up Dad’s Army. We remember it verbatim. It was extremely popular in Australia.
“Stupid boy!”
28 December 2015 at 17:15 #49765Yes, I think I agree with you. I felt that when River realized the Doctor was in fact the Doctor, the tone changed. And it was that later part of the story that I really liked. I think your comparison with Mels is a good one. And that was part of my hesitation in embracing the pantomime diamond heist part of the story. Whereas by the end she had become the River who was tempered (matured even?) by her love for the Doctor.
28 December 2015 at 16:04 #49763Another thing I thought was amusing, and not sure if this has already been commented on, but the Doctor flipping back (or forward?) in time to arrange for the building of the restaurant and booking the table, was strangely reminiscent of Moffat’s gag in The Curse of the Fatal Death–“I went back in time and bribed the architect…”
27 December 2015 at 21:44 #49745Actually, I think Moffat understands the craft of storytelling better than most. And he may well have been consciously aiming to give the first part a RTD feel for the reasons you give. Perhaps it just that, for me, I respond so much better to a Moffat universe than to a RTD universe. Or maybe it just says something about me and Christmas pantomimes!
But if this really is the last we see of River Song, it was a glorious send-off. The final image of a mature Doctor and a mature River looking into each other’s eyes…well…I am speaking, not just as a rank sentimentalist, but as a rank middle-aged sentimentalist!
27 December 2015 at 20:31 #49742A bit late to the party (well, some hangovers need quite a lot of sleeping off).
Yes, lots of fun, with a truly wonderful ending. But (and I realise some eyebrows will be raised by the use of the word “but”):
In a way, I saw the story as a mixture of two separate aproaches to writing. The first (the Christmas pantomime Diamond heist) had less of the feel of a Moffat story and more the feel of a RTD story. The second (the Doctor and River and the singing towers of Darillium) was pure Moffat. I liked the first part and I absolutely loved the second.
But I was struck by the strange mixture of an “RTD feel” and a “Moffat feel”, if you know what I mean.
An who would have thought anoraks would still be around in the 54th century…?
25 December 2015 at 15:40 #49652extra special Christmas greetings to @pedant, who reminded us all of how important it was to support the NHS.
(and universal healthcare everywhere…which is about as political as I get on Christmas Day…)
25 December 2015 at 13:02 #49650@scaryb you’re back! What a great Christmas present! And so many familiar avatars lurking today! Hurrah!
<bleary-eyed Blenkinsop contemplates another stretch in bed before exploring tthe Christmass tree>
23 December 2015 at 23:26 #49624A friend of mine, who owns a couple of restaurants in the Canadian prairies, called pierogi “Poland’s gift to international cuisine”.
And @pedant, in my part of rural Ontario, there is a central European foodstore that specialises in pierogi. When my brother-in-law (who is from Vienna) visited the shop he felt he had arrived in heaven.
23 December 2015 at 21:40 #49617Well, he did grow up in Canada, also a place with universal heathcare. So who knows, perhaps it is a case of “you can take Justin Bieber out of Canada, but you can’t take Canada out of Justin Bieber”.
Seen that way, and if, as @pedant hopes, he can sway his followers to support the NHS, then it really would be a sort of a Christmas miracle.
23 December 2015 at 19:40 #49611Justin Bieber–selfless humanitarian? I am willing to consider the possibilities of a Christmas miracle, but…
Or am I being too Scrooge-like?
22 December 2015 at 23:45 #49585As Christmas approaches, the question of a suitable Christmas movie looms. There are many, including the wonderful acerbic comedy “The Man Who Came To Dinner” (but only the 1942 version!)
But, on reflection, the Blenkinsop choice (both Mr and Mrs) would have to be “Night of the Hunter”(1957) directed by Charles Laughton. Given its theme it might seem a strange choice, but it has to be one of the most perfect movies ever made, and…a Christmas movie.
The following clip, isn’t really a direct clip, but is built around the music, and was chosen, for that reason, and in part, for @puroandson.
If you have the chance to see the movie, either at Christmas or anytime, do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwlSrpMK3VA
19 December 2015 at 12:27 #49521This is a rather monumental spoiler for the Christmas special:
http://www.darkhorizons.com/news/40487/-doctor-who-xmas-special-has-a-big-moment
Seriously, only read it if you are truly prepared to be spoiled.
In fact, given that the London premiere has already happened, if you want to watch the special unspoiled it might be a good idea to avoid all newspapers and the internet until then.
11 December 2015 at 15:09 #49278While I played some small part, the CD of Rassilon was, in fact, called by@Bluesqueakpip.
My contribution was to come up with a rather silly theory based on seeing the Prologue and being stuck on a long and rather boring train trip. The theory went something like this:
OK, I have watched it a couple of more times, and here is my theory: “He wants to see you.” This is a reference to one of the most powerful entities in the cosmos–the Great Librarian” who wants to see the Doctor because the last time the Doctor was in the Galactic Library, he borrowed a Big Finish audio recording and has failed to return it. It is now hundreds of years overdue and the fine is, well, really rather large. As a result, the Great Librarian has sent out his servants (the Vashta Nerada, of course) to find the Doctor. The Great Librarian is not to be trifled with. But the High Priestess of Karn realises that something is wrong. It is “that creature”, who is, of course the Meddling Monk, who stole the Big Finish CD from the Doctor and was going to attempt to change history by leaving it in a record shop in 1963, before the invention of CDs. But the Doctor has stolen it back from the Meddling Monk and is now being chased by both the Great Librarian, who wants the late fine paid and the Meddling Monk, who is now mad as a cut snake. As the High Priestess of Karn realises, this situation is likely to lead to the Doctor’s destruction, or at the very least being refused access to all other lending libraries. Chastened, the Doctor hands the High Priestess his portable CD player containing the Big Picture audio CD as he contemplates his next move in this dangerous game of library ethics.
Well, it went exactly like that, given that I just cut-and-pasted it from post #42534.
It was subsequent to this that @bluesqueakpip memorably named it it the CD of Rassilon in post #42567. So all kudos and the I Totally Called It Award 2015 (Mysterious Devices Category) should remain on the bookshelf of @bluesqueakpip for the entire 12 months of the year.
Which is not to deny, of course, that it might have been rather fun to see the dangerous game of library ethics unfold over the course of series 9…
10 December 2015 at 22:22 #49244@puroandson
Addictive, oh yes.
As a small Blenkinsop, I recall there was regularly a box of Bex in the medicine cabinet, in the bathroom. My mother “always had a box on the go” as they say.
10 December 2015 at 15:49 #49234Since it is sort of off-topic, I have answered your question about Bex over on the “Fox Inn” page here
10 December 2015 at 15:40 #49233Ahh, Bex. With the assistance of Doctor Google, and Professor Wikipedia, here is your answer:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Cup_of_Tea,_a_Bex_and_a_Good_Lie_Down
10 December 2015 at 14:46 #49227@puroandson
Christmas viewing. The Blenkinsop house always gets out “The Man Who Came To Dinner” (1943) with Monty Woolley, Bette Davis, Ann Sheridan and Jimmy Duarante. A fabulously funny antidote to Christmas treacle, which manages to be savagely satirical and strangely sentimental simultaneously. Monty Woolly plays a radio raconteur whose weekly show “is brought to you by ‘Cream of Mush'”
Probably the only way to get it in Australia is via Amazon. (They did a recent remake, but accept no substitutes.)
9 December 2015 at 17:57 #49167Hmm. That’s strange. It worked on my iPad, but not on my laptop. Try this one instead:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03bc5kw
<of course, it sort of undercuts the attempt at humour when forced to reload links. Oh well…>
9 December 2015 at 17:13 #49160The mystery of how the Tardis got to Nevada…solved!
9 December 2015 at 16:52 #49156we can deduce that it was carried to Nevada
Mind you, a roadside diner might have looked a trifle conspicuous on a London street (it was a very narrow pavement, as I recall) when it arrived to pick it up…
Wait! It was…invisible! Of course.
Hold on! Can you make it invisible if the chameleon circuit is not functioning?
So many difficult questions…obviously time for a cup of tea, a Bex, and a good lie down.
<last line an Australian joke, only meaningful to those over the age of 50. Or 60.>
9 December 2015 at 03:08 #49121Been reading the recent comments, and I think that people might be overthinking what happened.
I am more than happy to go with just what Moffat presented us.
The Doctor is angry. He blames Rassilon,. He punishes Rassilon. He wants to save Clara. He momentarily abandons being the Doctor to do just that. But he miscalculates, and Clara will always be stuck between the penultimate and the last heartbeat. So they both decide to take a chance on who will forget who and the Doctor forgets Clara.
He finds himself at the diner. He doesn’t recognise her. And he will never again recognise her. She makes the point about memories and a song. He plays a few bars on his guitar. It is so perfect that it brings tears to the eyes of (well, me).
They both end up in their own Tardis.
And it is still so so perfect that it brings tears to the eyes of (well, me).
Not Me, you understand, but me.
7 December 2015 at 23:52 #49023@puroandson
That chapter is now over.
Agree 100%
btw, how is life in Brisbane? My memories are of stinking, sultry, 30 degree heat in December with far worse to follow. Or am I being unfair?
7 December 2015 at 20:37 #49005@supernumerary
I am very saddened by your message, and echo the sentiments of others in hoping you will reconsider. I have no idea about the background to your decision, but one of the great things about this site in particular, is that it is a rather special pocket universe in hyper-space for civility and conviviality. The intended hurt and pain quite often inflicted on other sites is absent here. It would be a cruel irony indeed if we were to lose members because of misunderstandings, rather than because of the deliberate trolling that one finds elsewhere.
With a Doctor Who Christmas pantomime just around the corner, I hope you will be lurking at the very least, and contributing at the very best.
7 December 2015 at 17:32 #489926 December 2015 at 19:17 #48856By the way, I may not have mentioned this
I am sure I speak for everyone when I say that we are humbled by the opportunity to share the internet with you.
It was, indeed, a brilliant prediction, my friend.
And I am pretty sure the Karn Sisters came to The Doctor, rather then him asking them, in the teaser – because I am pretty sure they hold him in the highest esteem
On the other hand, as I recall it, the teaser/prologue opens with an explicit statement that the scene takes place on the planet Karn. Which would imply that the Doctor goes to them.
6 December 2015 at 18:09 #48837I think since the sisterhood of Khan knows a lot about timelords and even can force regeneration on one I personally believe they just know where timelords are when they are in the universe… if that makes any sense
Yes, it does make sense. But it also raises the question of why, if the Doctor wanted to find Gallifrey, he didn’t just go to Karn and ask them.
I suppose that is one of those questions, as Mrs Blenkinsop would say, “you’re just not supposed to ask”.
6 December 2015 at 15:26 #48818Well, finally got to see it. And it was definitely worth the wait. It was, indeed, brilliant. The ability of Steven Moffat to tell a tale is exceptional.
And I thought the ending was just about perfect.
The only thing I am still thinking through is: if the Doctor did not know where Gallifrey was, how did the Sisterhood of Karn know, and how did they get there?
Now off to read the comments.
5 December 2015 at 17:52 #48707There are bonkers theories and then there are bonkers theories that take it to the next level of bonkerism.
Of course, I think it is all highly unlikely. But it is one hell of a bonkers theory.
5 December 2015 at 16:29 #48694I am not convinced that we will see Missy. I suspect that this will be the Doctor facing off with the TLs by himself. Missy stories tend to require Missy to be the central agent driving the story. But as this is the conclusion to a three part story, I don’t see Missy as part of the mix. Clara, yes. Because in some sense the Doctor has to resolve himself to her death and move on. So I think we are likely to see Clara in some way tonight (or tomorrow in the colonies).
Cannot help but notice the wonderful irony of two of our resident and respected Time Lords (who are vital to the success of our virtual world here at The Doctor Who Forum) wanting a Whoinverse without Time Lords…
4 December 2015 at 23:36 #48650My thoughts are about Ashildr are based on the way she has been used thus far. I think the Doctor feels guilt over what happended in The Girl Who Died. On the other hand, there would be no love lost between them as a result of her role in Face the Raven. I just have this feeling that Ashildr, as a recurring character, will act as a sort of conscience, or even mentor, to this Doctor.
I don’t think she will appear in the Christmas episode, because she is intended (according to the Blenkinsop theory) for serious episodes. And I think she has been introduced by Moffat for the precise reason that she is part of the new hybrid arc/dimension to the Doctor.
Whether he is the hybrid or has created the hybrid, I have no idea, but he created another hybrid–Ashildr–and so I think she will attend this Doctor in series 10 as his conscience/mentor as long as that hybrid theme remains.
4 December 2015 at 22:39 #48646Have been reading through the comments, and am surprised by the assumption in many posts that Ashildr is on Gallifrey. If you look at her very brief appearance in the Next Time trailer, she seems to be wearing modern clothes and sitting in a modern leather chair. Not Gallifrey. I surmise that this is at the end of the episode–post Gallifrey and back on Earth. And I think we will be seeing Maisie Williams again. A lot.
4 December 2015 at 20:45 #48640Random thoughts about the future of Ashildr, based on what we know from BBC sources.
In the “Next Time” trailer, there is a brief shot of Maisie Williams in modern (?) clothes sitting in a modern (?) leather chair saying: “The hybrid: I think it’s time to tell the truth”. In other words, it doesn’t imply Gallifrey to me. Therefore, I suspect it comes from the end of the episode, post-Gallifrey. If so, it also implies that we will be seeing Maisie Williams as a recurring character in series 10. If so, will she be in league with the Doctor or opposed to him? Perhaps both.
3 December 2015 at 01:21 #48547The recuprative power of wine has alerted me to The Prisoner and The Avengers. Who knows what more wine will reveal?
2 December 2015 at 23:25 #48540Well, a bit late to the party…honestly, I go away for a few days, and not only is there an amazing episode, but there are eight pages of comments!
Well, let’s forget the comments for the moment. I’ll get to them later. Yes, it was a great episode. And very, very, Moffat. The mind palace, the the story within the story, the dialogue with the dead. All great stuff.
As my mind tends to work, I kept seeing influences. A few were: 2001, especially the final sequences of Bowman in the bedroom; Sherlock, well, pretty obviously the mind palace sequences; but most of all Cabin in the Woods, pretty much the whole set up, and especially the interlocking wheels and the attendant sound.
OK, off to read the eight pages of comments–yikes! And maybe a glass of wine. No…definitely a glass of wine. Or two. Or…
26 November 2015 at 18:29 #47936Brilliant! When Hitchcock was making “Torn Curtain” he had a falling out with his long-term composer, Bernard Hermann. In a fit of pique, Hitchcock dumped all the music. Somewhere on the web (would look, but I am currently in transit) there is a comparison of the central scene where Paul Newman is attacked, without the music, and with the music. It was clear that the scene (and the film) needed Hermann’s music. The film sank without trace.
26 November 2015 at 13:31 #47923Enjoying your increasingly complicated TL theories!
Until now, I was willing to accept that Clara really was dead, but after your post above I started to wonder, could they pull a Jon Snow on us? The assumption has been that since Jenna Coleman was off to play Victoria that she would not have the time to come back.
But they managed to keep her first appearance as the junior entertainments officer on the Alaska successfully under wraps.
I also find it interesting that there has been zero discussion of a new companion coming from the BBC.
Hmmm.
26 November 2015 at 01:49 #47885@puroandson
Hello Son of Puro. It is good to meet another person who dislikes Science! I was hopeless at both Science and Maths at High School, to the point where, at the end of High School (it was called the HIgher School Certificate back in my day) I failed Science and Maths at all levels. But my grades in History and the other humanities subjects were high enough to get me into university. I trace my high grades in History back to watching the Doctor Who story “The Aztecs” when I was 14, which began a long fascination with history.
So, yes, the long path from the 14 year old who disliked science to the university profesor, can be traced back to Doctor Who!
26 November 2015 at 01:10 #47880Well, only if they include these:
25 November 2015 at 23:45 #47874Well, it now seems to be official:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06s609f
So (he asks again), what will the Timelords be like? Grateful to the Doctor for being saved? Expecting the Doctor to be grateful to them because they gave him a new set of regenerations? Harbouring a secret agenda and in league with Missy? Barking mad as a result of the time war?
25 November 2015 at 23:38 #47873Like @ichabod, my brain is having a lot of trouble processing yyour idea. Indeed, after reading your post 3 times, my brain seems to resemble an Escher drawing. Even wine isn’t helping!
25 November 2015 at 18:43 #47856The teleport bracelet worn by the Doctor in Missy’s story in The Witch’s Familiar is totally different from the one he is trapped by in Face the Raven. And while he teleports in Face the Raven, the portable transporter is left behind.
Sorry to put the kibosh on a bonkers theory…
25 November 2015 at 17:26 #47848@arbutus Well, the pilot light in the gas fire had gone out, so beyond the safe onfines of the bed it certainly felt like I was covered in snow…but, yes it is true, I was covered by a comfy eiderdown.
25 November 2015 at 13:40 #47831Thanks for the preview clip, @lewis97.
It is still early in the morning here, and I have only had one cup of coffee, so the synapses aren’t all firing yet, but where have we seen that mini Tardis/transporter thingy before? And only recently.
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