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25 November 2015 at 12:00 #47824
@puroandson
Hurrah!
I wake up in the wilds of Ontario, covered in snow (Ontario, that is, not me) to discover you are back! And you have multiplied!
Such great news!
25 November 2015 at 02:56 #47777You’re drifting. The question is not about the Doctor, or indeed, Davros, but about the Timelords. They are returning. The question is, what will they be like this time around?
And why?
24 November 2015 at 23:31 #47763oh, I could go on…
Well, please do! It sounds fascinating!
Maybe over at On the Sofa. I am sure I would not be the only person interested in punchdrunk. They sound brilliant.
And I am still trying to work out the out of sync theory. I keep going back to the scene with Ohila in the Prologue. I am sure we will go back there…I think.
24 November 2015 at 21:47 #47758Since it seems increasingly likely the the Timelords are returning (but no announcement yet, hence this post on the Spoilers page), I was wondering what they will be like when they re-appear, and what the relationship between the Doctor and the Timelords will be.
Will they be grateful to the Doctor for saving them by hiding them in a pocket universe and feel that they are in his debt? Will they think that the Doctor is now in their debt, since they gave him a new set of regenerations? Will they be devious and self-serving with their own dark agenda to capture the Doctor (assuming they are the “they” that Mayor-Me referred to)? Will they be barking mad as a result of the Time War?
And was Missy just yanking the doctor’s chain when she claimed to give him the co-ordinates of Gallifrey? Or not? In fact, could her appearance last series (complete with attendant Timelord technology) imply some sort of pact with the Timelords?
So many questions, so little wine.
24 November 2015 at 15:03 #47718Yes, that is really rather clever.
But are you proposing that the Doctor had adventurs with Clara after the events in Face the Raven, but before Clara experienced Face the Raven?
It is at times like this I realise what a linear brain I have!
24 November 2015 at 03:49 #47688Clara Oswald is far from dead, far worse. Clara Oswald’s soul in in some form of hell.
Well, you’re the life of the party! Here I am, about to go to bed…
I have tried to think of a counter argument, and the only one that presents itself (at this late hour of the night)
is that it would be too cruel.
24 November 2015 at 03:16 #47685That is a brilliant theory! Totally agree that the confession dial is the clue hiding in plain sight. The idea that the episodes have happened in a different order is inspired. It also gives a logic to why the Doctor recognises Ashildr when he first sees her in the Viking camp.
That would mean that the first reference to the confession dial (when he gives it to Ohila in the prologue to series 9) is actually out of order.
Hmmm.
p.s. great to see you again. It must have been at least a year…?
23 November 2015 at 19:13 #47656Wasn’t it Samuel Johnson who said: “Nothing concentrates the mind like the prospect of being hanged at dawn”
23 November 2015 at 17:20 #47633I have been thinking about this, and as I said in my otherwise scatterbrained post above, it really may have something to do with the fact that he has been written as the first incarnation of a new cycle of regenerations. And as such, he is, well, more… Timelord. Colder, with an air of superiority. Danny saw this in him. Officer class.
Maybe this has been a conscious decision. To make him less likeable. And allow his experience of humanity to, well, humanize him.
This means that Capaldi is presented with an unenviable task. To play the Doctor as unlikeable, but to slowly win us over. By comparison, Matt Smith had the luxury of being able to start out from the beginning of his tenure as immensely likeable and then continue to sweep us along.
23 November 2015 at 14:55 #47623@bluesqueakpip
Sorry to hear that you have been having a hard time with this episode. You do sort of seem to be going through the classic 5 stages of grief–denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance. That’s not really a good place to be.Actually, I think the point you make about it all sounding like a story is a really good one. Whether it turns out to be true (and it may well) is perhaps less important than that it is a classic bonkers theory. Story-telling has run through all of Moffat’s Who–Amy’s Roman soldiers, etc, etc. And there is strong reason to suppose that it is the key to what is happening here as well.
But I am not sure yet how it is playing out. I suspect that, as the first Doctor to emerge from a new cycle of regenerations granted by the Timelords, it is the Doctor’s story that is being continually rewritten, by…the Timelords?…by…?
Not sure, but it might also tie into the way the Capaldi Doctor has evolved. Like you, I have had my reservations about the Capaldi Doctor. Last series in particular, it seemed to me that they just didn’t know what to do with him. Now, on one level “they” obviously means the writers. But when I say “they” I suddenly thought of Ashildr’s reference to the “they” that she had made the bargain with. Could the “they” in both cases be the writers of the show? I mean, how much more “meta” could you get?!
Brain starting to swim. I think I better go and lie down!
22 November 2015 at 19:39 #47539Dear Puro,
It has been a real privilege to be inspired by your reflections on this site. I have been in awe of your insight, your compassion, your humour, your erudition, and your encyclopedic knowledge and love of music. I do so hope that you will (and will be able to) come back and be part of what, in a strange way, is a vast, extended family (and I use the word purposefully) of enthusiasts of something we all hold special.
It is such a pity that your stepping back from the site has been under the circumstances it has. But real life, as we all know, is not as neat and well-scripted as fiction.
I wasn’t quite sure how to express my feelings adequately, so I will do it through the clip below. It is from my favourite movie of all time, and features perhaps my favourite song of all time.
For you:
If you can, come back.
blenkinsop
22 November 2015 at 15:22 #47513An excellent episode. As with @pedant, I agree with everything that @avaris said. A wonderfully insightful reflection on the episode.
It is almost as if this episode, particularly given the “To Be Continued” ending, defies bonkers theorizing. I have no idea at all as to where this might lead over the next two episodes. But I suspect that Moffat is about to take us and series 10 into totally new and uncharted territory.
21 November 2015 at 15:54 #47419Really like your take on the hybrid theme. I also think it can cut both ways. On the one hand, we are all a mixture of races, cultures, languages, as you point out. On the other hand, it is only by recognising that fact that we can understand our own limitations and put aside our pretensions to moral superiority.
I am reminded of the the end of “Quatermss and the Pit”, where the discovery of the Martian spaceship beneath the surface of London coincides with the race riots on the surface, and we are forced to confront the reality that our heritage is bound to the Martian race purges. As Quatermass soberly reminds us at the end, “We are the Martians”.
20 November 2015 at 20:11 #47353I have been giving this serious thought, and I think I have cracked it:
Shock: Clara is revealed to have been Colin Baker’s Doctor all along…
Terrify: …who will become the Capaldi Doctor’s companion for series 10.
Surprise: Well, you weren’t expecting it, were you?
<ok, I’ll get my coat…>
20 November 2015 at 15:08 #47341@fatmaninabox, @jimthefish, @phaseshift
I was trying to track down an old post I made to try and answer the questions of @frobisher and @nerys above. In my post #34221, I talked about making a post on the Trailers thread. But I do not seem to be able to find that thread. Any advice?
19 November 2015 at 19:51 #47298And a very fine theory it was, too. Truth be told, I just wanted to upload that clip of Troughton.
p.s. I wonder if the correct verb for what we do should be “bonkerising”. It is just that “bonking” does leave itself open to…well…other interpretations…
19 November 2015 at 15:37 #47292Discussion on this thread, and the general lack of bonkers theorizing at the moment, made me think that it might be nice to have another look at Troughton’s Doctor being forced to pick a new face by the Time Lords (in their first outing) who decide he must regenerate. It is a funny and whimsical note on which to end Troughton’s tenure as the Doctor, and a note that has been rather lost in recent years as each regeneration tends to be rather full of pain, or loss (with the possible exception of The War Doctor’s regeneration).
It is also rather amusing that the first face he is offered seems to be Karl Marx!
18 November 2015 at 16:03 #4724918 November 2015 at 13:33 #47244It was supposed to take you to a link to the trailer for the film”Grandma” with Lily Tomlin, which gives a hint about how a Capaldi Doctor/grandchild dynamic might work. Maybe.
18 November 2015 at 02:58 #47225Thanks so much for that link. Makes me proud to be Australian!
18 November 2015 at 01:02 #47219I agree. But therre are all sort of ways his children/grandchildren could figure in the mix.At the risk of using too many videos, the following trailer strikes me as something that has the sort of Doctor/grandchild dynamic that might actually work with Capaldi:
18 November 2015 at 00:00 #47215For you:
17 November 2015 at 20:48 #47209Have been thinking about the return of River Song in the Christmas special. Also thinking about the statement as reported in the DWM that in “Hell Bent” Moffat “may have changed something in the mythology, something Moffat was quite nervous about doing” #46796
Now, in “Death in Heaven”, Clara tries to fool the Cybermen that she is, in fact, the Doctor, by giving them a bunch of biographical information, including that the Doctor was married four times, all deceased, and his children and grandchildren are missing, presumed dead. If I am correct, this is the first time that information has been stated on screen. And it is Moffat who is revealing the information. It was also Moffat who had the Doctor and River standing together over the Doctor’s cot in “A Good Man Goes to War” and the body language clearly implied that their child had been in that cot. River leads a life that intersects with, but does not follow the Doctor. River also keeps her own counsel (even from her own mother!) River also leads her own life, and there are presumably long periods when she and the Doctor do not interact. Where’s all this leading?
How about to the idea that the change in the mythology that Moffat is going to nervously introduce when River re-appears (and remember that River should be dead–she was only an echo when we last saw her) is that it will be revealed that the Doctor and River did have a child, and that his child/children/grandchildren will, in some way, figure in series 10.
Personally, part of me has always wanted Clara to be that child, but that looks increasingly unlikely. Nor am I really suggesting that Clara will be revealed to be their child (but with Moffat, anything is possible!) Nonetheless, Moffat plants the seeds of future arcs well in advance, and there has, to date, been no follow-through on his scene of River and the Doctor by the cot, and why, one may well ask, would he go to the trouble of having Clara reference his wives, children and grandchildren if not for a reason?
17 November 2015 at 20:16 #47207Christmas has come early!
Just been excitedly unwrapping my 4 disc blu-ray version of the “50th Anniversary Collector’s Edition”, which includes “The Five(ish) Doctors”! Hurrah! To my knowledge, this is the only way to get “The Five(ish) Doctors”, and is only available from Australia. Thank god I brought my Australian blu-ray player with me when I emigrated to Canada!
16 November 2015 at 22:39 #47143I just re-watched. I think the episode is bloomin’ brilliant.
Totally agree. Just watched it again myself. Just love the whole meta element (which can be done in a really clunky way, but this is done with a lightness of touch). I think, on second viewing, this is what I would emphasis–the whimsical way in which this story, within a story, within a story, is done.
I was reminded of what was, perhaps, my favourite episode of “Star Trek: The Next Generation”, called “Ship in a Bottle”, where a holodeck programme of Moriarty from Sherlock Holmes gains sentience and Picard outwits him by creating a holodeck within the holodeck. At the end, Picard looks at the small computer module where they have “trapped” Moriarty and says, something like: “But who knows? Our reality may be very much like theirs, and all this might just be an elaborate simulation, running inside a little device sitting on someone’s table”. It is a lovely meta allusion. And so is this story by Gatiss.
16 November 2015 at 14:28 #4710816 November 2015 at 14:19 #47106indeed this could survive in isolation as almost a ‘concept’ story, rather than an episode in a series.
Yes, that is precisely what I was trying to say, but you captured it far more elegantly.
@soundworld Thanks for that. And you are not the only one struggling for the right analysis-words. I face that struggle every day!
16 November 2015 at 14:10 #47105@craig, @jimthefish, @fatmaninabox, @phaseshift
When posting, is there a way of doing a link to a specific post (#xxxxx) that would take you directly to that post?
16 November 2015 at 02:35 #47040@supernumerary, @countscarlioni, @jimmyp
I had missed the post of @jimmyp. Yes, of course. And I agree that this is not a normal AG Who outcome. That is why I think it is Gatiss doing a version of a BG Who story. On the issue of the Doctor “losing” and 38th century Earth being threatened, I strongly feel that Gatiss has consciously written a meta fiction here. I don’t believe it is supposed to fit into a narrative where A must mean B and therefore C in terms of canonical Who. I think the fact that the Doctor realises it is all a “story” is key here. That’s just what it is. A story. And Gatiss is reminding us of that. It is a story. In a way, this is as close as you can get to breaking the 4th wall. I think this episode deserves more praise than it has received.
Not sure I have expressed this as well as I could.
15 November 2015 at 20:46 #47022The english teacher not recognising a quote from Shakespeare.
Hmm. I wonder if this is a clue as to who, or where, Clara is? I mentioned upstream my idea (the result of thinking about “The Sixth Sense”) that perhaps Clara’s fate is not to die, but to discover that she is already dead. I have been trying to figure out how this might work. Remember back when it turned out that Amy wasn’t really Amy but a ganger that had been replaced by Madame Kevorkian?
If something similar is going on here, could Clara have been a duplicate since…?
15 November 2015 at 15:49 #47000Finally got to it after a troubled night’s sleep (which seemed strangely appropriate).
Very, very Gatiss. By which I mean, a self-contained meta-fiction, that draws on Gatiss’s love of ghost stories, M.R. James, and BG Who. In fact, for me, it had a real BG Who feel to it. There was something almost Tegan-like about Clara!
I think it will be one of those one-off Who stories that will grow in stature over time.
15 November 2015 at 00:45 #46952just saw the trailer on YouTube (since I cannot see the episode till tomorrow–drat!) and I think your reading of the trailer is spot on!
p.s. I feel certain that you are not Harold Saxon
14 November 2015 at 23:33 #46944Totally with you. I mean the image of the Doctor on splash page.
And the clip is, well, perfect.
13 November 2015 at 21:21 #46891Thought I should put this here, even though the idea came from the photos and material on the BBC Spoilers page.
For some reason, I started thinking about “The Sixth Sense”. Could it be that what is in store for Clara is not her death, but her realisation that she has been dead for some time?
Perhaps this has been discussed before?
13 November 2015 at 21:03 #46890Brilliant!
12 November 2015 at 15:43 #46839@countscarlioni, @purofilion
Comparing the shots from “The Impossible Astronaut” with the shot of Clara-as-waitress (that is in the Radio Times link) have you noticed that the black and white floor tiles are set at different angles in the two settings?
If this is supposed to be the cafe from “The Impossible Astronaut” that Clara is standing in, then I would say it has to be a dream version of some sort. It does seem rather too pristine. Almost like the way it might look in…the Nethersphere.
10 November 2015 at 23:40 #46747RLwork?
Ralph Lauren?
Rugby League?
Ahh, I see…Revenu Quebec
http://www.revenuquebec.ca/en/sepf/production-transmission/
<Blenkinsop staggers off towards cellar for a refill…>
10 November 2015 at 23:15 #46744The comment above (which is not about this episode) really should be on the Spoilers page.
10 November 2015 at 21:02 #46739OMG! RAF-style greatcoat…..
??
The Blenkinsop brain is obviously in a holding pattern. Connect the dots for me.
10 November 2015 at 16:54 #46725On another note, when the Doctor was trying to get Bonnie to think, and pointing out to her that she was having a childish temper tantrum, I could not help thinking how much the Doctor’s characterisation of Bonnie reminded me of of the way I (and, I suspect, most of us on this site) characterise a Doctor Who internet troll!
10 November 2015 at 16:46 #46724Oh, and one more thing… why did the Doctor label the buttons “truth” and “consequences”? He can’t have known that trouble would break out in a town of that name, and the phrase would eventually become the motto of a dissident faction.
I have been wondering about that as well. No doubt there is a logical explanation, but I cannot see it as yet.
10 November 2015 at 15:54 #46717Because what if Gallifrey is somehow located inside the Doctor.
Interesting. Or, if not inside the Doctor, what about inside the TARDIS? Hasn’t it been established that the TARDIS has virtually infinite capacity? I have a vague memory (as are most of my memories these days) of this being discussed in the episode “Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS”.
10 November 2015 at 12:33 #46712Thanks for the link.
So, Gallifrey is waiting…beyond the Veil?
Well, I like my symbolism to be obvious!
9 November 2015 at 22:59 #46689Oh, gosh. I’ve already got into one major row about religion on this site this week; I’d really prefer not to get into Religious Row II
Fear not. It’s not a row, and it is definitely not about religion.
And on that point, I shall move towards the Blenkinsop cellar, as the time of the evening warrants a quality drop.
9 November 2015 at 22:18 #46683I understand the point, but what purpose would be served by punishing Bonnie?
Dear me, it would seem I am clearly not explaining myself. Let me try again. I am not talking about the necessity for Bonnie to be punished. I agree wholeheartedly with the whole idea of forgiveness. What I am concerned with when I refer to consequences, are the inner consequences of guilt and remorse. The Doctor is a good man, precisely because he acknowledges his guilt and he expresses remorse. Danny was a good man for the same reasons. Missy/The Master never has been good.
What concerned me about the way this story ended, is that we are meant to feel that both Osgoods are, well…good. But what is missing from one of those Osgoods is an essential quality that might have better identified her as good. The quality Danny expressed and the Doctor continues to express. The Afghan boy deserved to be remembered, and was. The children of Galifrey deserved to be remembered, and were. Jac deserved to be remembered.
9 November 2015 at 21:46 #46681As well for Missy. That’s very doctorish.
I don’t think we can say the Doctor has a monopoly on guilt or remorse. Danny, for example, is just one example of a character who carries the guilt and remorse of his actions with him. And those inner consequences are enormously import.
9 November 2015 at 21:37 #46678The Doctor is either (Timestream 1) the mass murderer of over two billion children OR (Timestream 2) the nearly-mass-murderer of… Yet, here he is, content and on the side of the angels.
But he is not content, is he? He is very far from content. He is anguished and he is tortured, as he explains with great conviction. And that is my point. Those inner consequences are nowhere in evidence when it comes to Bonnie/Osgood 2. That is what I mean by consequences. The Doctor suffers those consequences. Bonnie, apparently, does not.
I must have missed the 5000 year prison term for mass murder/attempted mass murder.
Tres amusing. However, I fear that what you have actually missed is my point. I am not talking about Bonnie needing to be convicted of crimes. I am talking about the personal, inner, consequences. The consequences that the Doctor carries with him. And that Bonnie, apparently, does not.
9 November 2015 at 19:54 #46675Well, finally got around to a second viewing, and yes, there is much that is wonderful, especially the Doctor’s impassioned argument with Bonnie and Kate (but mostly Bonnie).
But…I now realise what was nagging at me after my first viewing. Forgiveness…yes. Absolutely. But what about, well…consequences? By the end of the story Bonnie has become Osgood 2, and with Osgood 1 she is content, and on the side of the angels. But what about Jac? What about the pilots and crew on the plane? What about the countless electrified remains that had once been either human or zygon? For Bonnie, there was no remorse, no evident feelings of guilt, no…consequences.
That bothered me a bit, to be honest.
9 November 2015 at 00:34 #46621Just got to watch it. A classic Who, but…actually, I think I liked the first episode better. Am I ARSE, or am I responding to being away for the weekend and getting some bad news about the family? Well, yes, probably the latter.
Still, a brilliant episode, and am looking forward to a second viewing in the morning.
8 November 2015 at 21:33 #46609Just watched the trailer as well. I suspect the “abomination” is referring to something in that particular story alone. The trailer has the feel that it might be a sort of “puff-piece” episode, before what I suspect might be the really emotionally heavy Clara-centric episode to follow. Just a feeling.
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