[janetteB @replies]

Well that was fun. The cliff hanger ending reinforced for me just what had been missing from AGWho. This felt like classic Who, base under siege, slow building tension and that ending!! So hurrah for the shift to two parters.

A few comments before reading through the posts, which I have been waiting all day to read. Sundays are tough. So many wonderful moments. My S/O was just chuckling over Clara and the cards. That was just lovely. As usual excellent performances all round. Morven Christie looks so different to “that lolloping one” in Lost in Austen. (Which I have just been watching again..) Interesting that by the 22nd century Unit and the Doctor are common knowledge. I certainly wasn’t expecting that response when he waved the psychic paper at them. I feel that Clara is in “over compensate” mode. She is trying to hard to be “jolly”, a mood that is contradicted by her sombre clothing. The brightness that was manifest before now feels forced. The doctor appears to be wincing at her demeanour in the beginning and I don’t blame him.

Little speculation at this stage only that I am guessing once again that the Doctor goes back in time, cracks the secret of how to generate the ghosts and sends his own “ghost” forward in order to save Clara and the crew.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@whisht @denvaldron and @Purofilion

I think the scariest “monster” ever in Dr Who were the vashta nerada from Silence in the Library, completely silent, absolutely deadly and hiding in books. They could not be fought and they could not be reasoned with. It was years before our eldest would watch that two parter and I understand why. Overexposure seems to lesson the fear factor of a enemy or monster. The dakeks, cybermen, sontarons and mixmaster are now all too familiar to be properly scary. The weeping angels became less frightening the more we saw of them. Fear arises from the sense of dis-empowerment, the “how will they/we survive” question.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@Purofilion I don’t think Sarah Jane Adventures, (SJA for now) was shown in Oz which was a pity. We rather enjoyed it, especially as our sons were in the target age group at the time. Elizabeth Sladden really shone and the “kid” companions were very well cast. It is worth watching if you can get hold of it.

Given that Moffat is at the helm I expect Class will be very different to SJA. I am really looking forward to it and hope that it features some of the kids we have already encountered. Courtney seemed to be crying out for an extended role.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

I hope there is some continuity with actors from previous Coal Hill based episodes. As soon as I read the news in the news thread I thought of Sarah Jane but I suspect with S.M at the helm it will have a very different vibe.

@lisa I would definitely vote for a ghostly return of Seb.

cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@kharis and @craig Well said both. This has indeed become a community. It is a very nice place to be and a privilege to be part of it.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

Still on the Clara issue, something else which I have noted is that she is dressed very somberly, in muted tones with a shapeless jumper over her dress and thick heals. Not more stilettos. This is essentially a Clara who is still going through the mourning process. She has been through quite a tough emotional journey and has understandably been changed by those experiences.

@jphamlore There have been any number of possible new assistants since Capaldi took over but my guess it will be someone new and that the new assistant will not start until next series.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@pedant On the question about Clara, (already at least a page back), I don’t think she panicked until she was unable to communicate with the Doctor given the extremely limited vocabulary available to her. When whatever she said translated to either I am a Dalek or You are an enemy of the Daleks there really were any options available to her. Before that however, though clearly scared, she submits to being locked into the Dalek because she trusts that Missy has a plan which will save the Doctor. So very definitely not disagreeing with you, just quibbling over a minor point. Clara was being brave in very challenging circumstances until confronted with the impossible, where she was trapped in every conceivable sense, physically and verbally.

@kharis, I have also been pondering the question of how the “Claricles” come into being. I posted on this earlier. It is implied that they are born in the usual sense. I suspect that this will remain one of those “fuzzy” mysteries that won’t ever be resolved. Maybe some things are best left to the imagination.

Regarding that other discussion my humble view is that there were moments where Davros was genuine, the joke when they laughed together and when he talked of having a home. It is the interplay of genuine emotion with devious cunning that makes his betrayal of the Doctor so shocking. In the end however we are talking about a very talented actor playing a duplicitous character or in other words someone pretending to be someone pretending,,. What is character and what is actor and what is intentional? Maybe this is a question that only Julian Bleach could answer.

If I ever had any doubts as to the merit of this episode than the length this discussion would have laid them to rest and after reading through all the debates I feel as though I really need another rewatch.

Cheers

Janette

 

[janetteB @replies]

The trailer does not really excite me especially after the excitement of the previous two stories. I am not a fan of the Whithouse stories, still right now anything which CapDoc in it has to be worth watching. (Not that the Whithouse episodes weren’t worth watching, just far from being fav’s.)

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@bluesqueakpip Like you I want the time war to be ended. Having two all powerful forces at loggerheads that will lead eventually to the annihilation of the universe is indeed a narrative black hole. It seems that Moffat is slowly chipping away at that story though he ran with it in the Time of the Doctor. If Gallifrey is to return or be found then something has to happen to the Daleks to avoid the resumption of hostilities.

Clara may be the child of two human parents but who are they? The oft repeated line “I blew in on a leaf” does however imply some kind of supernatural agency in Clara’s origin. In the scenes of the Claricles we saw a woman cradling a baby in what appeared to be The Old Curiosity shop window. (Maybe that is just how I recall that scene.) I am curious about how the Gallifreyan Claricle was born, etc.

I am still rather attached to the idea that Missy is Danny’s grandparent, after all he does use a non gender specific term though in my “heart of hearts” I fear that Danny’s story is done and we will hear no more about him or Orson.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@ichabod I also expected Clara to be a full time Tardis traveller by the start of this series so I was both surprised and a little relieved to see her still secure in her job at Coal Hill. I am hoping that as long as she is still at Coal Hill there is a chance of an encounter with Ian. I had forgotten the “you owe me” line. It may simply be what was stated, a call to him to stay alive, or it may play out later in the series.

On reading through the comments I am wondering if a group watch of “Curse of Fatal Death” would be in order. Maybe when the series wraps up as we might be in need of cheering up. It is interesting to watch now in light of how Moffat’s vision has played out over the years of AGWho.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@everyone. Wow. I thought I would never get to the end of the posts. So much to read and think about. I have made notes as I went but they are all over the place so sorry that I can’t credit everyone as I should. It is too late now to reread and I am helping write a yr 12 drama essay too.

@ichabod. I agree that it seems Davros is mixing genuine pathos with rat-cunning. The moment when they laugh is beautiful. He is using the Doctor but at the same time shows that he does have some respect for him. Davros almost certainly loves Skaro and has some feeling for his “children”. Interesting that Davros is the father figure to the Daleks and as he plays the Doctor’s equal and opposite, it raises the question, where is the Doctor’s home and children.

@Serahini, Ichabod and others.  Davros, being an arch egotist assumes that the two great warrior races must refer to this Daleks, masters of the universe and their arch nemesis the Time Lords. Clearly it refers to Time Lords and one other but that other warrior race might well be humans who tend to be quite aggressive and are on the rise as a universal power, at least in future based episodes.

@arbutus and others well pointed out. Clara is stuck within a Dalek, cramped, trapped, and unable to communicate and with a gun pointed at her head by her best friend while being betrayed by the one person with the ability to save her.  I think she does quite well given the limitations of the vocabulary available to her. Clara does lack self confidence. Back in Cold War she seeks confirmation for her actions, needing to be told that she did well. The claricles have a level of confidence that real Clara often lacks, almost as though they are her alter egos. In the restaurant scene in Listen she tells Danny her mouth has a mind of its own. It wants to go solo. That quick, nervous talking also indicates that she is nervous and covering that.

Another thought hovering about the peripheries of my half asleep mind concerns the Gallifreyan Claricle. Is she the offspring of the offspring of Mixmaster? That goes back to the question, do Claricles have parents?

Enough for tonight. I don’t really have much to add only to say that on rewatch this morning I enjoyed the episode much more. Sad though that Bors was never rescued from being dalekised.

Cheers

Janette

 

 

[janetteB @replies]

@bluesqueakpip I like the suggestion of River as the hybrid. Though not his offspring she was created through his intervention in the lives of her parents so it fits. The possibility that occurred to me was that the “hybrid” might be the offspring of Susan or Jenny.

I like the suggestion that the Christmas special might feature the Doctor’s family or maybe Missy’s family. I suspect that family is in some way connected to his reason for fleeing Gallifrey. It has been suggested before that the Doctor may have left in order to protect Susan, perhaps from an arranged marriage. We don’t know how these things work on Gallifrey. Certainly Missy’s mention of a daughter opens up  so many interesting possibilities as does Davros’ reference to the prophecy. Moffat does like to keep us amused or in @pedant‘s works, “to yank our collective chain.”

@juniperfish Like you I am really excited at the prospect of CapDoc and River together.

Recently it occurred to me that there is a problem with M.W. playing either Jenny or Susan for whereas both can regenerate time travel is not in the Time Lord DNA. It requires some form of tech that neither has ready access too. Maybe Susan was behind Orson’s time travel attempt. I can see her trying to get back to the 1960s to find her grandfather when she gets tired of her tenure on earth.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

I didn’t really enjoy tonight’s episode as much as last weeks, but maybe that was just me. The actors were all on top form and there were some great lines. For once I was half right as opposed to completely wrong. I expected that killing the handmines would re write time. The exchange between the Doctor and DAvros was so well done. The echoing of the Dalek/claricle was chilling.  I was expecting her to say souffle or at least “eggs”.

On first watch several questions arise, will saving Davros affect the future Daleks or was the concept of “mercy” always there because Davros had that experience as a child. Too tired to think too much on that tonight. Certainly the Daleks or Davros have used the word before. Does not Davros plead for mercy with the Daleks all the way back in BG Who or am I imaging that? Clearly I am overdue for some re watching.

The big mystery set up by the two parter which I suspect will play into the series arc is the nature of the CD of Rassilon. I wonder if it is in some way linked to Clara. We re watched the Magicians Apprentice first tonight and I was struck by her comment about impending death. The Doctor looks shocked then hugs her as though he thinks it is her death referred to. I think he might know something is about to happen to Clara.

The big revelation of course is the mention of Missy’s daughter. This raises enough questions to keep  bonkers theorisers theorising till the end of the series and beyond. Moffat, I suspect, will play this one out slowly. He is rather cat like. I like @phaseshift‘s suggestion that the daughter is M.W’s character. Someone, sorry I did not note who, speculated that the daughter is Susan or Susan’s mother. The Doctor and Missy as warring in laws works. It was possible the Doctor was taking Susan from Gallifrey to protect her from Mix/Master or Missy’s daughter. Also, less relevant but amusing, was Mixmaster mother or father or both? Timelord reproduction might work entirely differently to human reproduction. Missy certainly implies that in S.A. Another thought, following on my previous theorising about Danny is that he and Orson might be Missy’s grandsons.

A totally random remark but at times I got distinct B.5 echoes, mostly the Daleks and Davros mirroring the shadows and Lorien.

Looking forward to re watching tomorrow when I am less tired. Hopefully will enjoy more.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

Have been rather busy for the past three days and so this thread had grown in posts faster than I can read. Has been nice to have something so enjoyable to read between all the madness. So many great discussion and ideas put forward. I really look forward to seeing the resolution of the CD of Rassilion mystery, about which I have nothing to add to all that has been already written. I simply have no ideas on it.

I was particularly interested in the discussion about Clara. Maybe Missy knew that she was destined to save the Doctor and thus was following her about, waiting the opportunity to connect her to the Doctor. Not sure how that works. Danny especially seemed to lack a life beyond the little we saw of him but  I am certain that was deliberate on the part of S.M. Danny was meant to be an enigma. Clara I think is believable. She works, as a teacher and travels in the Tardis. That is a pretty full life. As to ambition, surely that is to travel and have adventures. When the Doctor first meets her in Bells of St Johns she says she wants to travel. Dalek Clara says that she enlisted on the Alaska because she wanted to see the universe. Clara’s ambition is to travel. That I find completely believable because that has always been one of my primary ambitions. Teaching for her may well be just the means to the end. I once contemplated doing teaching for that reason.

Have not had time to re watch but hope to do some before watching the next episode. Yay for Sunday!!

Cheers

Janette

 

[janetteB @replies]

@adric2015 It might help if you told us which country/state you reside in.. 😉

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@Purofilion

I like that concept -that thru sharing, we all get better: wiser, funnier, happier, more learned etc…. Our optimum state of being has improved.

You worded that beautifully. I certainly feel as though this forum has made me wiser and happier. I have gained so much out of the discussions. Long may it continue to enrich the lives of all who participate.

I did not know that Shorten was in Ballarat, indeed the home of rebellion. Maybe I can blame my contrariness on my place of birth. According to family legend we had an ancestor who was involved in the rebellion but that doesn’t quite track with the family records. My ancestors were later rebels, unionists and free thinkers. Maybe it was something in the water..

Cheers

Janette

 

[janetteB @replies]

For what it is worth, (and I acknowledge that Australian viewing figures being modest at best are not worth much in comparison to those of the UK and US) Dr Who has been repeated in its entirety several times since 2003 with the exception obviously of the incomplete stories so our sons’ generation are very familiar with the backstory.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@whisht good spot re’ the hand. I thought that we were seeing the Doctor as a boy when that happened. Maybe that was an intentional parallel, the man who creates the monsters to destroy the universe and the man who saves the universe were both once frightened boys not dissimilar.

Also I am sure there is a scene where Baker jumps up and down because I have a mental image of it, coat and scarf flying about, manic hair bobbing. Can’t recall which episode it was however. He certainly also uses the yo yo to test gravity and again I don’t recall when. (Actually may be the Zygon story.)

@denvaldron Given that old Who is easily available and being repeated in the U.S. from what I hear I would expect that many viewers new to the show would tap into some of the older stories. In the end however a story must stand on its own and not rely upon background knowledge. It is difficult to judge how well the story does that for us hardened fans because we derive so much additional enjoyment from the references to older material. Moffat does seem to do a good job of ensuring that the story stands without knowledge of the backstory it references. For instance the first time we saw the Shadow Proclamation we had no idea what it really was other than something that had been occasionally referred to in passing and duly ignored by all but the most attentive viewer.

Cheers

Janette

 

[janetteB @replies]

@whisht good to have you back. I suspect that some of the Who haters are “moffbots” or to be more accurate “murdochbots” attacking anything BBC. I was telling my SO last night about my description of keyboard warriors working in a damp dark cellar. He said he pictured them in a gleaming office with a team of others, all collecting their pay checks on the way out.

@Purofilion BTL refers to Below the Line, the comments in other, perhaps more meaningful words. It was lazy typing on my part last night.

cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@mudlark When I am tired, or have work to do, (both of which currently apply) I feel that I have a duty to read BTL and recommend all the positive posts. There were lots of positive comments. It also cheers me to talk to other fans, I mean actual 3d ones, who are mostly positive. Last week was the first time I encountered any really negative comments but they paled in comparison to those in Guardian blogs. Comments certainly have changed in nature though in the years that I have been reading the Guardian. The small minded, obtuse and hating have grown from a few individuals to a small army determined to dominate the air waves and ensure that their view is the only view, rather like Daleks actually, or so it seems.

Cheers

Janette

 

 

 

[janetteB @replies]

@Purofilion You were in fine form “over there”. Some great comments. How many times has someone who claims to be a fan posted that they will never watch again. Even during the Colin Baker years which I did not enjoy for many reasons I did not loose interest in Dr Who. I watched when I could which was very rarely indeed as I was travelling at the time. There was a chef with dubious hygiene at the pub where i worked who used to record it. (all staff “lived in) He would leave it set up for me to watch in my time off. His room stank so much I would position the television set so that I could watch it from the corridor. I don’t remember any of the episodes that I watched that way only the stacks of unwashed plates stowed under the furniture.

Burning TVs isn’t a good idea. Nasty chemicals in the smoke. Better just to unplug from the wall, like we did and watch Dr Who by other means. Course it does mean we miss other things, such as Q&A but friends always fill me in on what happened. (hence my wind farm comment.)

Cheers

Janette

 

[janetteB @replies]

Oh dear BTL on the Guardian. I am sure there is an army of trolls employed full time in a deep dark, damp cellar somewhere to post negative, spiteful comments on anything relating to Climate Change, wind-farms, the BBC and Dr Who. Sadly they are killing on line discussion. Sometimes I read comments just to recommend those who still speak truth, other times the shrill voices of the rabid depress me too much. I will pop over there now and recommend where appropriate again. We have to stand together. (I am rather certain the “haters” are for the most part not Who fans and never have been. They have a agenda which is most likely to have a shot at the BBC. Some are just twisted and bitter and think bagging something that others love makes them sound clever or tough. There are some sad ARSE fans too thrown into the mix. I wonder how many of those now bagging Moffat are the same “fans” who bagged RTD and could not wait for Moffat to take the reigns.)

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

The night shift have been busy… Lots of lovely bonkers theorising to catch up on over coffee this morning.

@spider Your theory was suitably bonkers indeed. I agree that Missy and Clara are most likely dead as is the Tardis. In order to save them the Doctor must go back, undo his mistake, abandoning Davros and thus teaching Davros that compassion does matter. This will of course lead to a change in Dalek DNA which will mitigate somewhat their ability to achieve their goal, universal mastery and the extermination of all other races. It will not result in nice cuddly Daleks that bring your slippers to your feet and fetch in the mail but there will be a possibility of a Dalek being good.

I don’t think Bors will stop the Doctor killing Davros mainly because it is too much a repeat of the ending of Death in Heaven with Missy and the Brig” not that that has stopped Moffat in the past. Also I don’t think the Doctor would even be seen (beyond one cliff hanger ending) to be contemplating killing a child. He abandoned a child but actually pointing a gun at a child is very different. I suspect the beginning of next episode will hit the viewer with a “how could you think that” moment.

When time is re written hopefully Bors will be saved as well as Missy and Clara.

@jphamlore that was a good point about the sonic. Davros however does not appear to recognise the sonic when he sees it in Genesis of the Daleks. (Does the doctor even have the sonic then? I have started re-watching but not got that far yet.)

@ichabod I assumed that the Doctor did not know about Danny and the child however maybe Clara asked the Doctor to drop the boy back to the time of his death. After all a child returning to life after a few years is not really an issue, (as some of the ARSE fans claimed on other sites) when one has a time travelling mate.

On the subject of Danny I can imagine Missy revealing to Clara that she killed Danny after all making a car appear out of nowhere to kill someone in order to get the Doctor’s attention would be entirely in character.

Cheers

Janette

 

 

[janetteB @replies]

@scaryb and  @blenkinsopthebrave I am hoping that Bors will be restored to full humanity by the end as I suspect that re writing the time lines is the solution to the dilemma. Bors was a good character and I would like to see him return from time to time. He could be the Doctor’s friend in the middle ages.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

Last post – I promise – before retiring to dream about Dr Who. I rather hope that the favour Clara requests from the Doctor before he goes in to see Davros is not the return of Danny, partly because death does have to be final some times and also because it would totally blow all my crazy bonkers theories about Danny, Orson and the Toy soldier. So for entirely selfish reasons I want Danny to stay dead. What does that say about me!!

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

Another thought on the reformation of the Daleks. If Gallifrey is to be found there has to be some form of resolution of the Time War. Maybe the Daleks start infighting as a result of genetic modifications diminishing their power and thus no longer capable of destroying Gallifrey, just making a few small holes in it.

As to the disk, given the Doctor’s propensity for lying it might not be what it is supposed to be. It might be some kind of “get out of gaol free card”.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

Have finally caught up with the episode and read through all the posts with the voices of Davros, the Doctor and Sarah Jane in the background. The boys are watching Genesis of the Daleks in the other room.

Lots of comments on other posts so here goes,

@spider. I was also saddened by the dalekisation of Bors. As pointed out above  I suspect this happened when he was attacked by the snake. Hoping that he can be saved too.

@bluesqueakpip It looked like Missy and Clara might have dematerialised as there were no bodies, but I suspect they are dead and the past needs to be rewritten to save them and maybe Bors.  Also next weeks trailer was remarkably spoiler free.

I like you suggestion that the Daleks will be changed. This does seem to be where Moffat is heading with them, not only for the reasons you mention, that an inherently evil race is a racist concept but also from a story telling perspective. Enemies that are complex are more interesting and have more narrative potential than those that are simply bad. The Daleks are predictable however in Into the Dalek it was discovered that the Dalek had the potential to be good. That potential is inhibited, thanks to the information which Davros obtains from the Doctor in “Genesis.” If anything his botched attempt to stop the Daleks coming into existence only makes them worse.

@jphamlore I think the Doctor has to save Davros in order to save Clara and Missy.

@bendubz11 welcome and a good suggestion about Gallifrey also being invisible.

And now some comments. I loved the Skaro interiors. They had a retro sixties “Who” set feel to them. I also like that now we see multiple types of Dalek. In the past the design changes were not part of the narrative. I guess back when old episodes were not available for rewatch changes in style were of little significance but now they need to be incorporated into the story in some way. I do like the original Dalek design and I guess there are a few floating around the BBC now after the making of An Adventure in Space and Time.

As to the ending, I think, as my S/O suggested that it is the handmines that he is about to exterminate not Davros. The Doctor would never, can never kill a child. He has gone back to save Davros and to teach him the meaning of compassion which will lead to the development of a less evil Dalek as “Bluesqueakpip” suggested.

To summarise, it was a wild ride of an episode with some wonderful dialogue, loved the scenes with Missy and Clara.  I think the Doctor’s behavior in the castle was meant to be OTT and to be out of character and OTT for the Doctor it would really have to be out of character and breaking some of his basic rules, ie messing with history.

I am also guessing that Capaldi was really playing that guitar because it looked like a scene written for him.

Cheers

Janette

 

[janetteB @replies]

thank you for the link @phaseshift. I had forgotten that there was to be another minisode so was pleasantly surprised when I saw it. Also nice to see Caerphilly without CGI extras or fog. (The first time I visited it was shrouded in fog. All we saw was the moat.) Loved the reference to the Visitors’ Centre. Somehow it made the present seem unreal.

The boys rewound the final scene a couple of times and it was concluded here that the battlefield might well be Skaro at about the time of Genesis of the Daleks when they were running about with WWII style weapons. (Or maybe WWI.)

Maybe he intends to go back to then and do what he neglected to do in that story and thus prevent the Time War. Does not sound overly likely though. It is too late for bonkers theorising at the mo. Last sleep until the new series…

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@blenkinsopthebrave I hope that you find a way of watching the episode.

@arbutus I agree also with your episode analysis. Maybe that is why our boys, like Blenkinsop had some reservations about this series. I personally loved the variation of style but I can see how disconcerting it might be.

Happy Who Day all.

cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@bluesqueakpip I have a few theories on whom the Time travelling ancestor might be. Both @miapatrick and I on different threads suggested that Orson might be descended from Master/Missy. There are also are any number of former companions, Ian and Barbara being my favourites. Other (albeit highly unlikely) possibilities I have thought of are the Jenny, the Meddling Monk or Susan.  Even River Song is a possibility and another could be the Maisie Williams character or someone else we are yet to meet. As you might guess I have devoted far too much time to pondering this question. I do think that Danny and Orson are connected though Danny is almost certainly not an ancestor of Orson’s. Clara pointing out the remarkable likeness to the Doctor implies that it does signify in some way yet to be revealed.

Another timey wimey possibility is that Danny is Orson’s son. AFter all Orson is mucking about with time travel. Anything can happen. I am still pondering on the significance, if any of the surname. Pink and Blue sound very much like military ranks. I wonder if any thought has been given to when exactly Into the Dalek takes places in relation to Orson’s failed attempt at time travel. (I know that Pink is an actual surname but still,, fun to speculate..especially as I am always wrong about the meaning of names in Dr Who.)

One of the great strengths of Listen is that it leaves the viewer with so many things to ponder and theorise about.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@blenkinsopthebrave and @brewski I think a lot more people will have seen The Enemy of the World given that it was recently “re discovered” as opposed to other older stories so a reference to Salamander is more likely than to many other a old Who villain but then again to revive the character would require knowledge of the story whereas just using a old evil, such as the Great Intelligence or the Ice Warriors does not require prior knowledge so I guess I have tied my argument up in a knot.

@mudlark. Yes it was a little disappointing to find out about the hands but they still look cool.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@missy I am certainly not celebrating and not a Turnbull fan, far from it. Like @Purofilion I fear that the change of leader to beguile voters into believing that we have now got a respectable government but he is just a superficial smile pasted over the rotten edifice that will continue to destroy all the things that made this such a good country to live in.

One of the problems is that people take “good things” for granted. For instance so few people appreciate just why they have an eight hour day, lunch breaks, paid holiday leave, sick leave, etc etc. They take their working conditions for granted and grumble about unions. “What use are unions,” they ask while enjoying a lunch break that was fought for and won by a union. Free health care and education are likewise accepted as “god-given” not something that was fought for and won through politically active and committed people. Lack of understanding of how we arrived at where we are now leads to lack of appreciation and thus neglect and loss of those things which give us the quality of life we enjoy.

Cheers

grumpy Janette.

[janetteB @replies]

@arbutus in all the excitement over the prologue I missed your Flatline review when it was posted. This is definitely one of those episodes which improved by multiple viewings and this was one of the better ones to begin with. You have summarised it well. The “baddies” were proper scary, there was a generous sprinkling of Whoish humour and the secondary characters were well developed.

Clara has gained enough confidence to be The Doctor but this may not necessarily be a good thing. She is needed as a counter to the Doctor not a reflection.

cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@mudlark. I share you love of Rackham’s ethereal illustrations. I have managed to get hold of a few books illustrated by him over the years.

There are so many different styles of book illustration and a truly good picture books is not purely aimed at children. Colin Thompson for instance wrote specifically for all ages. His illustrations are remarkably packed and colourful. Looking at some now I can see a similarity of style. There is one I found of a child wearing a red backpack wandering into a forest titled “the paradise garden” which could easily have inspired the set design of ItFofN.

Cheers

Janette

 

[janetteB @replies]

@blenkinsopthebrave and @Purofilion. I have very mixed feelings about the news and Puro I think your description of Turnbull is absolutely apt. He will put a nice face on a rotten government beguiling voters into thinking he is the better option, especially given that the alternative it Shorten who isn’t really impressing anyone.

@pedant Bishop along with along her cronies requires a stretched simile to convey the full nastiness.

cheers

Janette

 

 

[janetteB @replies]

Really keen to see An Inspector Calls. Many years ago, when I was an impoverished Uni students working as a waiter it was performed in Adelaide. I could not afford to buy tickets but had to work on a theater drinks thingy serving guests (with more money than brains) who had been to see it and complained that it was boring, too high brow etc. Ah the bitter injustice of it.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

Cool hints. Thanks for the link @lisa. Prompting some speculation to keep the time ticking away until Sunday. (When we get to watch.)

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@Purofilion. Ah now I know what work my youngest should be doing. I will be having words. (He is the same year as Boyilion I think). Meanwhile will be spending this week assisting the yr 12 recalcitrant with his work as he has deadlines fast encroaching.

SmithDoc would have been incapable of meditating. CapDoc seems rather inclined to a spot of meditation but given the results in Listen I am not entirely sure that is a good thing.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

I also think the old enemy referred to is Missy. The Doctor might be trying to revive her in order to find out where Gallifrey is, ostensibly at least for who does things for only one reason? The Doctor has a rather sentimental attachment to his old enemy. Missy clearly does know there whereabouts of Gallifrey, she is using Gallifreyan tech. I also suspect that who or what is searching for the Doctor is someone else, even possible a Time Lord. Rassilon maybe.

@purofilion I went to the lolly shop in the city today and they have sold out of English Jelly Bablies so it is Aussie Jelly babies for us as well as Aussie style jammy dodgers. The supermarket no longer stocks the British ones. I will compensate with fish fingers and custard. (for the boys, not me..) I could not get white noodle boxes either, (Time Heist) so bought bright green ones and am painting them blue. Not Dr Who obsessed, nooooo. 🙂

Another prequel? Yay. I love these “mini sodes”. Something to look forward to at the end of what is going to be a long irritating week.

Cheers

Janette

 

 

[janetteB @replies]

@blenkinsopthebrave. Are you certain that you haven’t been peeking at the scripts?? If not then I think you should apply to the BBC for work as a Dr Who script writer ASAP.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

I have been reading spoilers and I too am totally mystified by the prologue. (have to say I have never read anything truely spoilerish on the spoilers thread thankfully.) Like @blenkinsopthebrave I assume the “he” referred to is the Master, “lifelong enemies and all that” but as for the rest, I assume all will be clear next week. No bonkers theories because I am certain that any speculations would be so far off the mark that I am happy to wave the white flag before making the attempt.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@Purofilion. I must chase up the Geoffrey Robertson Q&A. I had the honour of hearing him talk by phone last year at a dinner. He was supposed to have sent a pre-recorded speech but due to an organisational muddle ended up phoning in. It was really quite wonderful to hear him speak and for him to hear the audience response. He is a remarkable man, an Australian to be proud of as opposed to those who make us hang our heads with shame.

I always enjoy stories which capitalise upon the potential of the Tardis though Journey to the Centre of the TArdis was rather disappointing. That does however remind me that there are still some questions left unanswered from that episode. Maybe it is time I re watched.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@arbutus, like Puro I am really enjoying your reviews of the episodes. I think you really nailed some of the reasons why on recent re-watch I skipped this one. It isn’t just the moon-egg concept which I did have difficulty swallowing but the episode did not hang together and I particularly disliked Clara’s strop at the end. My main discomfort though in watching Kill the Moon was an awareness of how the episode would be received. One year later and I am  still finding myself defending it and Moffat as show runner because of it. (Not on here so much as in “real world” discussions, not an easy task given it was my least favourite episode in the series.)

Cheers

Janette

 

[janetteB @replies]

@mudlark. I sympathise. I hate updates with a vengeance. They are as irritating as Daleks. Not too late to join in the Dickens discussion. Also I was thinking of you reading the article about the hidden Durrington Walls henge.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@lisa Me too. I like the idea of meeting a future incarnation of the Doctor but as his “incarnations” maybe infinite then it can be done without ever using that actor/incarnation again. After all we know that sometime in the future he will reincarnation into an elderly Tom Baker but I am quite sure that will never happen on screen. It would be good if Big Finish ran with that however and did a few curator Doctor stories.

Fingers crossed P.C. will do at least two more series.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@cathannabel Captain Wentworth is the man and he is certainly the most believable of Austen’s heroes. I love Persuasion equally as much as P&P for quite different reasons. I am adamant that there should be a copy of the later in the first aid box. It is my go to book in a crisis. I credit Mrs Bennett with helping save my life. She does more for an elevated temperature than Paracetamol.

@purofilion Rochester is attractive on the pages of the book and even more so when portrayed by Toby Stephens, (son of Dame Maggie Smith incidentally) but I don’t think he would be an ideal partner in real life.

Oh dear. We have strayed haven’t we? I am desperately trying to think of something pertinent to Dr Who right now. A gothic Bronteish episode maybe or did Crimson Horror cover that turf sufficiently? Perhaps a episode set during the Napoleonic wars. I do like the historical episodes. That would be familiar territory now for Peter Harness.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@arbutus I watched this again last week and really enjoyed it. It is a fairly lightweight story with deeper layers of meaning. The Blitzer is simply a plot device, which might well have sneaked out of a Sarah Jane Adventures episode. The real drama is the developing relationship between the Doctor, Clara and Danny. The Doctor’s dislike of soldiers is a theme running through this series which plays out in the final episode when Danny proves that a soldier does not only kill and the Doctor shows why he has no use for soldiers. Throughout Moffat’s run he had been steadily deconstructing the themes set up or explored by RTD.

Clara’s attempt to lie to Danny when he stumbles upon them and the blitzer is indeed cringe-worthy. I cannot watch it without wincing. The Doctor swings from wisdom to naivete. From “it’s a roller-coaster ride with you today” to realising that Danny is in the Tardis wearing the watch. As with Smith Doc nothing brings out the eccentricity of the Doctor better than trying to be human. Tennant was maybe a little too good at it.

Those moments with Danny and Clara are even more touching in hindsight.

My only real gripe about the episode is that we did not meet up with Ian. It is more than time that Ian made an appearance, at least before Clara bows out ending the current association with Coal Hill.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@stellaluce333 Most fiction of that time had central female characters regardless of the authors gender though as there was a high percentage of female writers a lot of fiction is very much written from a female perspective. Dickens was however in many respects a progressive particularly in regards to social commentary. His works did draw public attention to many of the social injustices of the day.  Oh and of course welcome to the forum. You come here to talk Dr Who and wade straight into a discussion of Dickens. Well done and don’t worry. There will be plenty of “Who” talk soon once the series starts. Enough to make you head spin.

@cathannabel The problem with Dickens’ earlier heroines is they were based upon his long deceased mother and the deceased sister in law, both intensely idealised. It was only after his infatuation with Ellen Ternan that he began to write some more rounded female characters such as Estella and Bella Wilfer. Few of the great women writers of the 19th C really wrote well rounded male characters either. Take for instance the arrogant Mr Darcy and who would really want to marry the aggressive and devious Mr Rochester?

Cheers

Janette

 

[janetteB @replies]

@missy Osgood was named after the scientist in “The Daemons” (John Pertwee) who it turns out was her father. She wears virtually identical glasses. Oswald and Oswin are old Saxon names, as is Osgood. Moffat seems to have a penchant for old British names. The meaning of the names has been discussed many times but I would have no clue now as to where. Oswald and Oswin were both Saxon rulers. Mercia or Northumberland from recollection. I should know as I have researched the era extensively but is very late and my brain has turned into a great grey marshmallow. It probably has no significance to the story whatsoever but if history is your thing then I recommend looking them up.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@miapatrick. Sorry minor correction, Wives and Daughters not mothers. I really enjoyed that book and agree with you that the ending of North and South lets down what is otherwise an excellent book. The fault, ironically is Dickens. Gaskell wrote the novel in installments for his Household Works magazine and he pressured her to submit “copy” resulting in rushed work and sadly it shows. (the ending of the book is nowhere near as silly as the ending of the TV adaptation which was about as anachronistic as plastic water bottles on a 1920s mantle shelf.

Cheers

Janette

 

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