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@seranhi – ooh, good point! I’ve only watched Deep Breath once, and had completely forgotten about both of those! The coat thing wasn’t very nice, and I was shocked by the ‘there’s no point in him catching us both’, but it was such un-Doctor like behaviour that I’m assuming that it’s something that will be explained later in the series – like his appearance in the artificial forest in the second part of the Weeping Angels story in S5, that was only explained in ‘The Big Bang’. Either that, or his personality was even more fractured as he was still getting himself back together after regeneration.

Either way, this Doctor obviously has little time for social niceties, or a care for how he’s perceived by others…

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@seranhi – This incarnation of the Doctor must appear very different to the Clara knew – apologies if I got the wrong end of the stick with what you were saying. I would argue one thing though – I haven’t detected a streak of self-preservation in this Doctor. People who know the series of old may disagree, but I’ve always thought of the Doctor striving for the good of others and being willing to sacrifice himself. This incarnation may lack a ‘bedside manner’ but I didn’t see anything in that situation that signified him caring about his own welfare – he was taking advantage of Ross’ death to save them all. It would be nice if he comforted him, and I think people who are nice wanted him to, but it wouldn’t have saved Ross’ life, or changed his fate, to say sorry.

@purofilion – sorry if I’m raking up the ‘slap’ debate (hence the ‘tedious’ comment in my last post.). It’s tricky on here – I’m new to the site and find that you log on at a certain time, read comments and want to contribute to the debate, sometimes hours after the last post on it. As stated, when I first watched the episode I didn’t really notice it, or at least wasn’t bothered – it was only after comments on here about it that it got me thinking, and I thought I’d throw my tuppence in.

I’ve never hit anyone, so consider a physical reaction of any sort to be a poor choice, although I admit women slapping bigger men is sometimes played for laughs/deemed ok because it is reversing the expected dynamic. I certainly wouldn’t class what I saw as domestic violence, though, and am well aware that more serious problems go on in the world than one action in an episode of Doctor Who.

(Being picky the whole ‘re-organising neural pathways’ was slightly different as the Doc had asked her to do it.)

Apologies if this is an overly-serious response!

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@midnyt – ah, I see – you were referring to Clara merely being a plot-point who saves the Doctor, instead of a rounded person? I get your point about the slap showing her as a real person, albeit one with flaws. I know we all have them, but – bearing in mind the ‘look’ on  @thommck ‘s kids’ faces – there’s an issue somewhere here about role models and behaviour (like the oft-quoted bad behaviour of premier league footballers being aped by kids).  In terms of learning from other peoples’ mistakes, it’s fair enough to show a flaw of a character, but show it to be a flaw, rather than – as here – it being some sort of excusable, or reasonable, action.

I know I’ve made a few comments on the slap, and my views on it are probably getting tedious by now (sorry!) and the weird thing is I only did so after reading other peoples’ comments – on first viewing I didn’t really think much of it, other than an extremely mild internal gripe. Interestingly, on second viewing I’d argue that what Clara says, the argument she puts forward is the swaying factor, rather than the smack to the chops. The lightbulb moment comes a bit after the slap, and in reaction to what she’s said.

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@midnyt – thanks for putting the text for the ‘slap’ argument down, as it helps put it into context. I can see now that feeling in very real danger of dying, and the Doctor almost loving it, because he was ‘proved right’ about Daleks, would be enough to push anyone to anger – especially as this incarnation is so much more ‘alien’ to her that before. I can understand the slap a bit more in that context. It’s probably more succinct and effective than screaming him a verbal b*llocking.

Out of the realms of superhero films, or where someone is actually fighting with a enemy, I’m still not keen on slapping. I don’t consider  Doctor Who to fit into the former category – there might be a lot of running, but physical violence has never been depicted as being the answer, especially by Ten – although Nine did do a bit of fighting while fighting off the guards after Rose had been ‘disintigrated’ in ‘Parting of the Ways’.

I’d like to think society is moving on from depicting physical violence as a serious solution – as @miapatrick said, ‘no-one should slap someone of the opposite sex’, as it’s resorting to ‘base’ responses. Also, @midnyt – I didn’t really agree with your suggestion that  ‘Men sometimes punch each other as a wake up call’ , although in mitigation I would say that as a man who in nearly 40 years has never thrown a punch, aside from one ineffective effort as a 12 year old!

@Seranhi – was what the Doctor did as Ross died ‘morally grey’? It certainly was cold, but from the moment Ross shot a grappling hook into the side of the Dalek’s interior and the anti-bodies arrived, he was dead anyway – the Doctor was getting him to ingest the tracing agent in a quick way, and was more concerned with everyone else’s survival. He couldn’t have done anything to save him, and saying how sorry he was and asking if he mind eating the tracing agent, and what it was, wouldn’t have been possible in the time Ross had left. Do you not think that things like getting humans to kill a race (the Silence) on sight is probably more morally grey? (In my humble opinion!!)

@midnyt – ‘Still not crazy about the fact that she had to be the savior by making him get his head back in the game, but we’re getting somewhere.’ – is that a reference to the number of times Smith’s companions got him out of trouble?

@arbutus @midnyt @purofilion and many others…

I saw the ‘age’ remark as a cynical joke about our society’s obsession with youth, that as you approach thirty people can feel ‘old’ when mainstream media is so youth-oriented, and that to an 18 year old, 27 is ‘old’! Of course to a 38 year old 27 is an enviable age, but I wonder whether the Doctor’s remark was revealing just how irrelevant the concept of age is to him – even if this incarnation looks older – but of more relevance to humans.

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@pedant – you’re probably correct! I need to watch it again to be sure, although I don’t really disagree that the exchange ‘pre-slap’ was more than just a disagreement (bad phrasing on my part in the original post.) – I suppose I’m just disliking resorting to a physical response to solve a big argument.

I really liked Oswin, but wouldn’t have called her ‘modest’! Her character was so confident and not shy about proclaiming so that it reminded me of Ten and his ‘I’m brilliant!’. Neither bothered me, but I wouldn’t call either ‘modest’.

The collective conciousness angle is interesting, and I admit, not one I’d considered.

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@pedant – mmm, I’m possibly out-of-my-depth arguing this point as I’ve only seen the ep once, so you probably have a point about the level of offence, although I’ve always thought of Clara as being intelligent enough to effectively berate or scold someone, rather than resorting to slapping.

However, on the point about the her having ‘been the good Dalek’, this incarnation hasn’t been a Dalek, so it’s not like she can feel personally affronted, is it? She can be offended on a moral level about the Doctor’s response to the situation, but surely, for a witty, intelligent woman, capable of giving a verbal scolding, there’s a better way to deal with the situation?

That said – I concede that she seemed to be struggling to control her class at school in the flashback in ‘Deep Breath’.

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@phaseshift – nice ‘list of top slaps’. I’ve missed much of ‘slapgate’ on here, but when I was reading everyone’s comments, Jackie slapping Ecclestone’s Doc was the one that I was going to mention (mostly because I’ve just done an all-nighter and worked my way through series 1 and 2, so have seen it recently…). As slaps in Doctor Who go it looked a real wallop.

– Do you go online and pretend you’re a doctor?
– I am a doctor!
– Prove it! Stitch this, mate!

Can’t say I thought too much about the slap in ‘Into the Dalek’ until these comments. I thought it was just supposed to be a joke, and I think I laughed a bit, although it seemed a bit needless. Clara talked to the Doctors to get them to change their minds about ‘the moment’ , so I couldn’t understand her doing it here. Am I alone in thinking that it almost contradicts Clara’s character as a modern, intelligent woman if she’s going to start going all ‘Nora Batty’ about differences of opinion. I’d have thought her character would be more likely to scold the Doctor. Unless of course that wouldn’t work with this Doc…

BTW – Apologies for referring to answers given waaay back in this thread, in the comments below…

@chickenelly – I’m not really seeing social awkwardness in this Doctor, I just think he doesn’t care about how he’s perceived. I like the explanation – mentioned by both @purofilion and @bluesqueakpip – that he just doesn’t need to impress anymore as he has his own family out there somewhere, and is moving on from the more charismatic preceding incarnations.

Also, while what happened to the old Amy in ‘The Girl who waited’ was horrible, it wasn’t the Doctor’s fault was it? I forget why he couldn’t have her on the Tardis but I seem to remember he had some reason. I could be wrong but I don’t remember it as malice. I have issues with Amy in this episode – she makes a mistake and turns on the Doctor and blames him for it. I know it’s a horrible fate, but she should accept responsibility. She travelled with the Doctor, she knows the risks – I really didn’t like how all that hate spilled out.

Oh, and I really like the theory about Missy being a version of the Tardis (put forward by @pufferfish? )…

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@arbutus – thanks for listing the other Doctors’ characteristics. So do you see this incarnation as some sort of mixture of the previous 11/12? I’d heard comparisons with 7, but interesting to see the others. I’m leaning at the moment to this being an incarnation all of it’s own, just a reaction in some way to the life he’s lead in the 11 incarnation – be that either in demeanor, or response to the war on Christmas, but it’s an interesting angle that he might be some sort of ‘merged’ Doctor.

Can’t remember who said it, but I also like the notion that he’s almost been ‘reset’ to something comparable to Hartnell’s Doctor.

@bluesqueakpip – good 11 quotes, and I have to admit I’d missed a lot of 11 calling referring to himself as a monster. It was easy to see 11 as someone not in control/clowning around, but Matt Smith -whatever I thought of some of the stories in series 6 & 7 – was always superb at portraying an old soul within a young body – it’s been said everywhere before, but he really had it in the eyes.

I like the idea that one of the experiences that’s shaped this incarnation is that realisation that he took the ‘weak’ way out originally, instead of pushing for another way instead of killing. To play Devil’s advocate though, I always thought he seemed at peace at the end of the 50th, almost ‘lighter’…

@arbutus – I don’t see this version of the Doctor as being evil or even particularly unkind. Yes, he doesn’t sugar-coat anything, or go out of his way to comfort people, but aside from being abrasive what has he actually *done* that’s unkind (as opposed to saying unkind things)? I may be missing something obvious (as a caveat I’ve only seen the first two eps once each), but I can’t really remember him actually doing anything bad. Indeed, he showed vulnerability when asking Clara if he was good, and I also thought I detected sadness in his eyes at the death of the soldier who sacrificed herself, and maybe as he was saying ‘no’ to Journey at the end.

@vastrax – As for Ross’ death, correct me if I’m wrong but I thought that Ross accidentally triggered the anti-bodies and the Doctor was just (coldly) making use of his death – he didn’t cause it, or encourage him to do it (as far as I remember…). I’d also defend Danny Pink – his morality doesn’t seem to be in question at the moment.

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@fonsini – as you will no doubt have gauged by now, no-one on here is going to agree with you. It’s pointless for you to continue trying to turn us to your paranoid musings, just as it’s painful for us.

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Wow. Was slack-jawed while reading Mr Fonsini’s diatribe, and – considering I should be working – was steeling myself for having to write back and correct some incredibly warped and paranoid ramblings – so thanks to @cathannabel and @bluesqueakpip for dealing with it so much better than I ever could.

@bluesqueakpip @scaryb @whoisthedoctor and many others…

I wasn’t that bothered about the way the Doctor dealt, or rather, coldly-used Ross’ death – I winced certainly, and it’s not how I would want to be, but as a character this Doctor is proving to be quite fascinating. I’d go so far as to say the one thing he did that I really didn’t like was to flatly reject Journey (or is it Jenny?I’ve seen both on this thread and have only seen it once so far) when she wanted to travel with him. Using Ross’ death as he did, but with no Ten-style apologies was simply coldly pragmatic. He lacked for bedside manner to say the least, but was more concerned about the group as a whole.

Some people have mentioned a slightly changed attitute to the military, and him acting in an un-Doctor-like way. I’m not really that familiar with the first 8 Doctors beyond what I’ve read and clips I’ve seen, but aren’t I correct in saying that he’s had varied characters throughout his many incarnations – is this the darkest? Past all the front I don’t believe he’s ‘evil’ at all – just harsh. I don’t think he pushed humpty, either.

When 8 regenerated into the War Doctor, it was deliberate – he chose the characteristics he needed for the challenge ahead. It was stated, or at least implied that all other changes are random. Are his regenerations therefore a response to situations/experiences that he’s been through? So he can’t control the process, but it’s like an automatic biological process where the body comes up with a ‘solution’ or ‘antidote’ to what ails it?

In the ones I’m familiar with 9 was very ‘take-charge’, had little need for niceties when dealing with people who weren’t, er, nice, and was bruised after the Time War. It took Rose to save him from that. In response when he regenerated he became more of a pacifist, at least until the end as 10 abhorred violence. After ‘Living too long’ was it any surprise that his next incarnation was more carefree and youthful (at least on the outside). So is 12 a reaction to that? both physically and mentally? Or like 9, a reaction to the trauma of defending Christmas for so long?

Now that I’ve read that through it sounds either completely obvious, or odd, but it’s taken me too long to type!

Either way, this new Doctor is colder than 9, and a darker, more complex, more cutting Timelord than we’ve seen for quite some time. Who’s his most comparable incarnation? I watched 7 as a kid, but couldn’t really tell you anything about his character.

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@ubik – not only you, I was wondering that too, although as Jenna Coleman isn’t leaving yet I wasn’t seriously expecting it. Wonder if there’s a connection though – can’t help but think about the emphasis of her wincing as she received each ‘shock’ as she turned the lights on…

@confused polarity

Personally I think Ten would – but not without explaining first and being sorry, so, so very sorry.  I loved Ten, but by the end of his time the agonising over his failure to save every last living soul he encountered was beginning to grate with me.  Twelve hasn’t got the time or the inclination; he just expects us to understand. Insensitive, yes, but absolutely logical.

Good point – Ten would have done the same but, as you say, would have said he was sorry.

I have to say I like the dark sarcasm and put-downs from this Doctor. The comment about Ross being ‘the top layer’ of gloop ‘if you want to say anything’ was particularly dark, yet I laughed-out-loud.

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@purofilion – the only film this reminded me of – mostly just in concept – was ‘Inner Space’…

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@purofilion – yes, as you and barnable have mentioned Amy had done quite a bit! Not being quite as familar with series 6 & 7 I’d forgotten what she’d done, but I really like series 5 and now that you’ve mentioned it – and I’ve remembered – it’s strange to think I’d forgotten in the first place!

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@barnable – no offence taken – I didn’t think you were being harsh! As for the questions after nearly ten years after the restart, and a certain familiarity with the adventures of 9,10 & 11 I keep remembering questions I’ve always wanted answering, and this forum is pretty much the first place I’ve found where you can seriously ask, or at least muse! I couldn’t really see myself asking in the harsh realms of the Guardian or Den of Geek forums…

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@barnable – forgot to say that imagining Spock reading that explanation made me laugh out loud – well played.

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@pedant @bluesqueakpip – all this talk of duplicates and replicants concerning Danny Pink is interesting. It would be truly disturbing if they fell for each other, and then one of those Dalek-conversion eye-stalks appears… *shudders*

On another note: as that Dalek exterminated all the Daleks on that ship, but was then going to join the other Daleks was he not just going to wipe them all out? That seemed to be the logical outcome…

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Only two episodes in and I think Capaldi’s Doctor is – to borrow 9’s word-of-choice ‘fantastic’. I know we haven’t seen much of him – and I have nothing against Matt Smith’s portrayal – but I thought the whole episode was thoroughly entertaining from start to finish. I like this new, grumpier, colder Doctor – as many have said I’m not used to the Doctor saying things like “He was dead already, I was saving us”, although this didn’t jar with me for some reason – possibly because he’s not being cruel, just coldly pragmatic.

I’m also liking the puns and the withering put-downs. It’s totally different from the recent incarnations, yet somehow still ‘The Doctor’ (I’m saying that he DIDN’T push Humpty out of the ship last week btw…). In fact the attitude reminded me of some of 9’s characteristics – specifically when Rose was objecting to him using dead peoples’ bodies as hosts for the Gelf:

ROSE: It’s just wrong. Those bodies were living people. We should respect them even in death.
DOCTOR: Do you carry a donor card?
ROSE: That’s different. That’s
DOCTOR: It is different, yeah. It’s a different morality. Get used to it or go home

Has this regeneration gone wrong though? Is he partially suffering from amnesia? I was under the impression that when the Doctor regenerated that he knew who he was, and could remember everything, he just looked and sounded different and had a completely different personality, but essentially he knew who he was. I remember in ‘The Christmas Invasion’ 10 saying he didn’t know what kind of man he was, in terms of personality, as he was still working it out, but he was completely at home as the Doctor from minute one and obviously considered himself the same person in terms of memories and past deeds.

Maybe it’s all to be explained…

Doing an ‘Inner Space’ with the Dalek was a neat idea, and it worked really well – nice direction, and good to see Michael Smiley and Zawe Ashton. I did feel gutted for Blue though – after all 10 hated the military but was persuaded by Donna to let Jenny go with them – with Capaldi’s Doctor it was so final, and what a smackdown! In some ways that’s the cruelest thing he’s done so far – normally he’d offer someone who wants to change a chance to travel with him and do just that.

@scaryb – nice note about the names and swapping the genders around – I hadn’t even noticed!

@pedant @oblique @mightbesherlock

Originality is tough thing to achieve as we are all  consciously and subconsciously influence by ideas in other media. I always think it must be so tough, maybe nigh-on impossible to put forward an idea that’s *completely* original. Obviously there are no real limits writing something like Doctor Who, but ideas are bound to be influenced by something before.

As it happens I thought this was a pretty unique episode, and @pedant and @oblique make really good points about the audience this show has to cater for and the different approaches it employs to do this. Also I think they’ve attempted to do different things with the Dalek storylines recently, and they’re all interesting. My favourites would still be ‘Dalek’ because it showed a Dalek changing and having a different emotion to hate, and Rose helping the Doctor change, and ‘Doomsday’ as we got to see how terrifying fully powered Daleks were, and also them kicking the ass of the Cybermen. However, recent Dalek episodes have been high-points and thoroughly entertaining.

(Sorry to those who found this all a bit ‘TL;DR’ – I apologise!)

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@barnable – fair point re: Amy – I stand corrected! I knew there was something but couldn’t remember as I was typing. I’ve watched News series 1-4 quite a few times (helps to put them on in the background while I’m working in the dead of night), and series 5 a few as well, but series 6 & 7 only once or twice – so I’m not as familiar with some of the details.

Also, good points (along with @geoffers) on the creatures in ‘Fathers’ Day’ – I seem to remember the Doctor calling them something like antibodies and that they were sterilising the wound, which would imply an automatic action if it was ‘living time’.

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On another note, I’ve always been puzzled why absorbing the power of the Time Vortex proved fatal for 9, even though he had it in him for a short time, but Rose was fine after having it in her for much longer – can anyone shed any light on it for me?

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@bivium6 – I’d forgotten about Martha and her ‘quest’.

So with Rose absorbing the power of the Time Vortex, Martha trapsing all over the world, Donna becoming the Doctor-Donna, and Amy… – actually can’t think of anything that Amy did – and Clara flinging herself into the Doctor’s timestream, all the ‘modern’ companions have been ‘special’ either by deed or birth. Can anyone who knows ‘Old-Who’ well tell me if companions of old ever did anything similar? Or has there been any attempt since 2005 for the companions to prove themselves by doing something ‘cosmically spectacular’ or ‘special’? In other words were the old companions more ‘ordinary/normal’?

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@purofilion – no worries, and definitely no offence taken! I was just confused as I was sure I hadn’t mentioned anything about ‘excuses’. Sadly, I even resorted to highlighting the word ‘excuses’ on screen to double-check I hadn’t missed something in one of my comments!

@serahni @arbutus @midnyt and many, many others…

Great theorising on Clara. So is she a paradox? ‘Born to save the Doctor’ because the one who’s been travelling with the Doctor is herself a Claricle? She’d then be one of those ‘loop’ paradoxes like Kyle Reece being John Conner’s father, but only after John Conner sent him back in time, or in a Doctor Who context like Rory freeing the Doctor from the Pandorica.

I’ve always thought that all the ‘echoes’/Claricles live ‘proper’ lives up until the point that they save the Doctor, and fate or whatever nudges them into meeting/saving the Doctor, but (for all those wondering about her having children) I also think that fate makes is so that she never has kids.never been a massive fan of her character.

I have found myself warming to Clara and her story a bit. I still think that she comes across as some kind of ‘fantasy girl’ – much like the 80s staple of the girl no-one fancied because she was a geek and wore glasses…even though she was drop-dead gorgeous. She also reminds me of – what’s it called again? a Manic-Pixie-Dream-Girl? Also, Moffat has made her so much more important that *any* of the other companions – almost seems a little unfair. I mean, how can any companion compete with her?

But after seeing all the theorising on here, I’m starting to see her and her story in a slightly warmer light!

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@bivium6

Nice link about paradoxes – I’d forgotten that line about ‘never crossing your own timeline, except for cheap tricks’. As many have pointed out, the Doctor lies, and most of the rules have come from him.

As for ‘Father’s Day’, I’ve remembered that the Doctor said that because there were 2 versions of him and Rose, that that point in time was vulnerable – maybe that’s why the weird creatures came? Although, still, why wouldn’t they appear at other points ‘like journey to the centre of the Tardis’ when the Doctor has crossed his own timeline? Possibly, because it’s do with Rose’s dad dying, and by extension that having a bearing on the type of person the Doctors’ companion would become, maybe that made that point in time a ‘fixed point’…

Also nice to see that someone sees what I mean about Moffat’s Doctor. I particularly like the line: ‘so I do give an inch, but he takes a mile.’.

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@midnyt – good point about the ‘rising higher’ – I’ve never considered it as a criticism before, or at least not being a positive. I still think that achievement was overstated though. Either that or it’s pacing meant that the achievement of staging the rescue mission just didn’t ‘seem’ as great as the other feats 9, 10, and 11 achieved…

@barnable – very true. I keep forgetting that Moffat and the Doctor lie. I should probably learn not to get so hung up on the little details!

I’m still puzzled by the sterilizing creatures in ‘Fathers Day’ though – with all the hopping around on internal timelines after that episode why have they not appeared since?

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@purofilion – I’m really sorry, I’m probably being massively dense, but I didn’t quite get what you meant when you wrote this (post #30550):

‘OOh Silverman; excuses we’re making? Hey, come on: myself Serahni and Arbutus have given some verifiable arguments for why Clara was able to act her pretty as* of in DB. If we’re making excuses then we too would actually be agreeing with you, but no, they’re not excuses at all -arguments and evidence, plainly and at times, beautifully written. It’s in the subtle nuance of the argument and also the DB episode itself. 🙂 🙂 :)’

I’d written 2 or 3 big posts and not quite sure which bit you were referring to – sorry! Was I making excuses? And about what? Sorry to ask for ‘clarafication’ (ha ha). I have had my hang-ups about Clara, but thought she was good in DB, with some realistic emotions on display. However, I’ve never quite warmed to Clara, or for that matter, Amy after series 5. But I guess that’s the beauty of this programme and it’s ever-changing roster of timelords and companions – everyone has their favourites, and sometimes you have ones you don’t get on with, or (rarely) those you just plain dislike (*cough cough* Colin Baker!).

I’m still trying to gauge how to put things on here as everyone seems like a friendly bunch, but I do like a good argument and after trading blows with people who are pretty rude from the off, on things like The Guardian and Den of Geek, as I write what I’m thinking I start drifting into ‘rant mode’, for which I apologise. That’s probably as a result of how I feel about the show – I started going off it after series 5, but still retained a love of the show and the concept, and still enjoy watching it, even if I still feel my favourite episodes are behind me. Some of my favourite episodes have been Moffat-written, definitely…but S6 onwards (again: In my very humble opinon!) I felt that it started to get messy. I think there’s a trend where Moffat makes ‘his’ Doctor and companions ‘better’ than their forebears. So ‘his’ Doctor lives for the total of all the other Doctors’ ‘lives’ and is depicted as being more powerful and better than ever. Gone are the ‘normal’ companions who are believable humans, replaced by the uber-perfect ‘girl who waited’ and the ‘impossible girl’.

*pauses for breath and braces to receive criticism* – be gentle, please, ha ha!

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@purofilion @serahni @arbutus and many others…

Clara has been the subject of much debate on here recently, and I thought I’d throw my two-pence-worth in about her coping with the regeneration.

Clara’s been ok as a companion, but I haven’treally warmed to her backstory, or been convinced of her as a realistic character. However, Jenna-Louise Coleman has been good, and was great in ‘Deep Breath’ and the change between Smith and Capaldi’s Doctors, and her adjustment to that is going to be an interesting story.

(I should declare that my knowledge of ‘Old Who’ is an 8 year old’s memory of my favourite Doctor Peter Davison, then the betrayal and deep, deep disappointment of Colin Baker – an 8 year-old’s pain! Noooo! I would never watch again!…but I obviously did. However, my memories of it are vague and I can’t really remember any part of the old stories – other than being scared by the vampire in Curse of Fenric).

So in terms of regenerations Eccleston’s was the best in my opinion. It was moving, powerful, he didn’t moan about changing, he tried to play it for laughs to make Rose relax, and he tried to warn her. His sign-off was the best too – “and Rose? You were brilliant…absolutely brilliant. And d’you know what? So was I!”. Rose’s reactions were great too – absolutely in keeping with witnessing such a strange (to her and to us) process, that robbed her of her friend.

It’s occurred to me that Clara has undergone the reverse of this (bear with me…). Rose possibly loved Eccleston’s Doctor, but it was mostly a close friendship. She was weirded out by the transformation, but once she gets over the change and realises it’s the same person, but different, she relaxes – but this ‘time’ he’s more charismatic, younger, and fanciable – no wonder it escalates to love.
For Clara it’s the reverse – She knows the Doctor is 2000 years old, but she’d only known him looking ‘about her age’ so it must – from a human’s perspective – be easy to think of him as a more relatable, and possibly fanciable, figure when he was played by Matt Smith. To see that person change in appearance and character to someone so -pardon the pun – ‘alien’ must be bad enough, to make them suddenly appear to be someone twice her age makes it worse.

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@pedant @purofilion – good points about the Universe rebooting/collapsing. I love that episode anyway, so I’m glad to have reason not to have ‘fault’ with it!

There’s still the contradictions between the time-travel in ‘Father’s Day’ then the rule about not travelling back along time-lines…or have I just answered my own question? Maybe that’s why they can never travel back along the same timeline thereafter…

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@purofilion – sorry, I wasn’t being very clear. Yes, there was comedy, and prat-falling in the GitF, but IMHO it doesn’t get in the way of the story.

As many people have pointed out, much like Eric Bana’s Nero in the first Star Trek film, the Robot story in ‘Deep Breath’ plays second fiddle to the main story of the regeneration aftermath – and that’s out of necessity, so I may be being unfair. What I meant was that in making references to the GitF I was reminded of that story, and for me the robots in ‘Deep Breath’ suffered in comparison.

By extension, I’m then reminded of a time when the show – again in my opinion (don’t want to offend anyone!!) – featured comedy in the stories – in that example: the horse, Drunk-Doctor, Mickey in general – but it was still emotional, and great story. In *some* of Moffat’s more recent stories I tend to think that bombastic speeches and spectacle *can* sometimes get in the way of the story.

While I’m on the subject, I’ve found that Moffat sometimes just states that ‘story X’ or ‘action Y’ are amazing, as opposed to actually making them so, or depicting them as such. I really didn’t like ‘A Good Man Goes to War’ (I think that was the episode – the one with Colonel Runaway in it). Matt Smith was great as usual, but I didn’t like the story. In part it was because it seemed to be one of those episodes where they shoe-horn in loads of characters to re-use old costumes. But MOSTLY, it was because they kept banging on about the Doctor ‘rising higher than ever before’. I know there was a caveat about ‘falling again’ after that, but ‘higher than ever before’?!? Really? With the help of weaponised friends he breaks onto the space station, but ends up falling into a trap. How is that higher than a myriad of accomplishments of the other 10 versions of himself? Off the top of my head:

10 saving the lower half of the UK from Nuclear annihilation? Saving the World from the Sycorax? 9 healing all the infected in ‘The Doctor Dances’ “Everybody lives!”? Smith’s Doctor sending everyone away at the Pandorica? And there must be loads more of Doctors 1-8 that I can’t name…

Sorry! I got into ‘rant-mode’ there… maybe it’s bed time?

 

[Silverman @replies]

This may have been covered here already, but while I liked it the first episode of the new series, ‘The Girl in the Fireplace’ is still one of my favourite Doctor Who stories, and the references in ‘Deep Breath’ backfired a bit for me as it reminded me – in my humble opinion of when fantastic effects, comedy prat-falling and jokes – while great in many bits of Moffat’s stories – didn’t get *in the way* of a great story.

[Silverman @replies]

@purofilion @barnable @bluesqueakpip

All good points and theories about explaining the dinosaur’s presence in ‘our’ shared history. Three days after watching the episode, and as many have pointed out, I think I’m probably best to wait and see how Moffat ties it all up. If he does explain the size and the fact that loads of Victorians witnessed a massive dinosaur then fair enough – I guess as not a massive fan of huge swathes of the past two series I’m not convinced that he will though.

@arbutus – I’m afraid I’d have to disagree about Loch Ness and Bigfoot. As far as I’m aware both legends gained traction by supposedly being witnessed by one or two people in isolation – never by hundreds of people at one time. I reckon events witnessed by many people in Victorian London would still make it into history even if they weren’t at a ‘1066-level’ and taught in schools.

@serahni – I also have problems with the Victorian guy saying it was the government If the general public in the present in films like Godzilla are going to scream and run away instead of saying “I bet it’s Derren Brown”, then I’m fairly sure the average Victorian person would soil themselves and run away.

@scaryb – I have no problems with accepting that Silurians existed in history within the show, but within the show they are a secret to most people in the present, ie – they didn’t show themselves to hundreds of people in the past. As mentioned, the show itself obviously considers this a point or Smith’s Doctor wouldn’t have felt the need to explain why no-one remembered the massive Cyberman.

As said though, we should wait to see if Moffat explains it – there could be many timey-wimey explanations to come. (I should probably not complain so much about something after episode one of an entire series!)

@purofilion – fair point: Moffat has done a fair bit of history…I just find it done in a bit more of a throwaway manner. Instead of an episode based around Dickens, and facts to base a story on, you get Churchill as basically a walking-impression-best mate/window dressing. *BUT*…as you have said, the show’s main purpose should be to entertain, not educate – it’s not Horrible Histories.

@bivium6 – YES! the vagaries of time-travel in the programme have mildly irked me too. When Rose stopped her dad from dying all hell broke loose, the Doctor was NOT happy, and weird things came to sterilise the wound in time. In that instance – quite rightly – the Doctor said it was dangerous to be in his own timeline. Then, at other times, and definitely with Tennant it’s all about ‘I can’t go back on my own timeline’. We then had Matt Smith’s Doctor zipping all over his timeline to free himself from the Pandorica. I loved that episode though, especially all the paradoxes…I just wish after implicitly stating one thing in one story, that they would explain why they can contradict it later. (to Nit-pik: Captain Jack makes the Tardis go crazy and throw them to the end of time in one ep…is fine to ride it problem-free thereafter.

(It’s pretty late and I should go to bed, so I apologise for pedantry while critiquing a TV show…)

[Silverman @replies]

@purofilian @thommck – I addressed your replies above but it wouldn’t ‘tag’ properly…

[Silverman @replies]

Apologies: this is a bit long…

@purofilian

I think I prefer the historically-set episodes of Doctor Who, and like the historical facts scattered within, but agree with your point that Sci-Fi writers shouldn’t have to adopt an educational role. Perfectly happy to not have historical elements in the show – just get them factually correct when they do feature. It’s also nice just putting educational facts in – like when Tennant’s Doctor was explaining about happy prime numbers!

I’ve been arguing all day with a commenter on Den of Geek about putting ‘history’ in the show, and specifically about there being no record in history of a massive dinosaur stomping all over London. He suggested – perhaps not unfairly – that in a show about a timelord with two hearts travelling in time and space in a blue box, that I shouldn’t complain about lack-of-realism, and remember that it’s all fantasy.

I would say that there’s a difference with something being ostensibly set in the real world, and it being portrayed as real. In sci-fi and drama shows tend to be SET in the real world, but obviously not real – ie. ‘it’s the real world’ but with exceptions – normally the superhuman/alien/special protagonist. The unspoken setting is that everything around them is contemporary present.

Perhaps I’m being a pedant, but I tend to assume that unless obviously shown to be set somewhere else – be it Tatooine, Middle Earth or Westeros – that shows are ostensibly set in ‘our’ world. It’s a concept well-used in other shows.  The X-Files was ostensibly ‘our’ world, and while it’s obviously fiction the fun suggestion was that these things happened, but we just didn’t know it.  ‘Ultraviolet’ in the 90s with Idris Elba and Jack Davenport in, was about an agency hunting down vampires. The show was set, for-all-intents-and-purposes in ‘our’ world, and the key to getting us to believe in vampires (within the borders of the story) is to suggest that we just didn’t know about them.

I prefer it when Doctor Who aheres to these ‘rules’ and takes mysterious established events and provides an ‘explanation’ – Agatha Christie’s disappearance in the 20s for instance (although I hated the massive Wasp…ugh, so bad…). While it’s obviously not true, from a narrative point-of-view I’ve always liked the idea that you can keep up the pretense of it being in ‘our world’ because the events that happen in the past are rarely witnessed by a multitute…or they’d be history. Smaller happenings can be kept quiet.

In fact, forget the ‘real’ world. If that dinosaur had been stomping round in the world of Doctor Who, then Clara would know about it, Rose would know about it, and every character in the show would know about it, because they’d have been taught in school in history, that a massive dinosaur stomped round London in the 1880s.

The show itself obviously considers this a valid point too. When a massive Cyber factory stomped around Victorian London in ‘The Next Doctor’ it raised the same issues (as did @janetteb). When Matt Smith’s Doctor discovered the cracks in time a series or so later, he was musing on the cracks ‘eating’ time and certain events, and mused words to the effect of:

“…a massive cyber-factory attacks London and no-one remembers.”

insinuating that the crack ate the event and that’s why it’s not recorded in ‘our’ history books.

[Silverman @replies]

Hi everyone, first post here, so apologies if it’s too long…

It’s hard to get a bead on how things will be on a Doctor’s first episode, but I liked it, and Capaldi as the Doctor. It still seems to have the same problems though, as I had no problem with Matt Smith in the role, but disliked a lot of the stories due to the style that Moffat has fostered.

I probably shouldn’t over-exam a sci-fi programme, but the dinosaur irked me for a couple of reasons, and mainly that it presented Vastra as ‘knowing the truth’ that dinosaurs used to be that size…when they weren’t.

I’m not so familiar with old-Who as I was about 8 when I remember watching Peter Davison in the role – but for Ecclestone and Tennant, Doctor Who used to insert interesting educational facts into the narrative, so kids would be enlightened, albeit as secondary to the narrative, but you’d also find yourself picking things up too. Off the top of my head: facts about Madame de Pompadour, the Koh-i-noor, Charles Dickens, Queen Victoria, Black Holes, etc.

That seems to have disappeared now as Moffat throws a load of special effects around stories that are all style and no substance.

Also, the whole of London witnessed a dinosaur! If that happened ‘in real life’ (stay with me on this) we’d know about it now and it would be documented – it’s massive changing of history. The show at least used to keep with the pretense that it was all about ‘our’ timeline, and that when,in past episodes, the extraordinary happened in history,  that only a few characters were witness to it. Think ‘Family of Blood’.

I still like Madame Vastra et al, but Clara still irritates – mostly as she just doesn’t seem real, just another in a line of flimsily-drawn ‘perfect girl’ characters who have model good-looks, no flaws, and also no connection to a ‘real’ world. Rose and Donna seemed more down-to-earth and relateable. When they were on the Tardis we, the viewer, had our viewpoint of the adventures reflected in them.

Overall it was ok, and I liked Capaldi – but I would really like a series of single episodes revolving around one story, with just the Doctor and Clara.

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