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just a song inspired by the American Diner from Hell Bent.

I know its not a mobile diner, but still, surely no one would have been surprised if this had come up on the juke box…

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Just a couple of replies (as I know naff-all about structuralism!).

@juniperfish – “Impossible Me” made me larf!

@winston – no worries about my moniker. Either it’ll auto-correct to a card-game or ‘whilst’ rather than the actual “shut up” that it is!

;¬)

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@pedant – actually, I think it might not be “The Teacher” after all.

if I wilfully ignore your last advice to me, I think Clara and Asildr will be:

The Wiggler and Me.

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Firstly something important:

@puroandson – you’re worried about being “silly and wrong”??

Good grief – that’s what I aspire to!
Hope your mum’s feeling better soon.

Now, after a long apprenticeship we have Clara as a “Doctor” in her own right. She has her own Tardis, companion and unknown lifespan (no regenerations, but we don’t know if she’d ‘die’ in any normal way).

But what will she call herself?
The Teacher?
The Governess?
Simply Clara?

Answers on a postcard please…

;¬)

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So, I’m away with work and on a tablet so can’t go back and check, but…..

Am I right in that @bluesqueakpip totally called it months ago??

Though in my fuzzy memory was it also @blenkinsopthebrave ?

Basically the Confession Dial really does seem to have come from Rassilon.

It truly is “The CD of Rassilon”

Bravo!

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So – just a quick one.

I had suggested (and I don’t think I was alone) that this episode would be The World as its Tarot card.

I’ve just looked up what that card is meant to be, as I’d been a bit glib and simply thought “last card in the journey” and “world” = Gallifrey.

Instead the card seems to be a more ‘positive’ card, about not only the completion of a cycle (still good for Hell Bent) but a more positive outcome, self-integration, attainment and satisfaction.

Now that could still hold true but its a bittersweet attainment.

Perhaps like the other two-parters in my list it is still linked to Judgement (the judgement of Rassilon and the High Council etc).
Perhaps Christmas will be The World card…

(btw I don’t watch spoilers or even “the next episode” previews, so I really have no idea!)

But I do agree with the idea that we’ve been watching Clara’s journey from Apprentice to Doctor-esque, and that her folly damn near killed her.

 

 

 

*though obviously this whole Tarot thing is all bonkers, its our bonkers!

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On a phone so will be quick.

Seems an explanation for not recognising someone even after seeing them, evidence of them etc is that the neural block is not a single “wipe” but an ongoing block.

She is blocked from his recognition and yet he can almost break it (as perception filters were broken in trap st)

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ah, @craig thanks for the Nyman.

Unfortunately a ‘friend’ pointed out to me that his music only really stands up when one sees it with Greenaway’s visuals.

The sod. He mentioned this and when I re-listened to the music from The Piano which I loved as a film, I could only hear as he did, the music as ‘plodding’ and ‘cold’).

{sigh}

On hearing this just now, I thought I’d go and find Belly of an Architect music (not by Nyman) as I’d really enjoyed it when watching the film all those years ago, only to find…. it too is better in (my) memory when it was alongside the film.

{sighagain}

I stopped listening to him so was able to enjoy music again.

Thank god for good editors!!

;¬)

anywho.

tWho tracks from me, both for CapalDoc who has lost Clara and run away from Gallifrey.

First, one we’ve had before (if you want to hold your breath while I apologise, you’d better like the colour blue).

He’s run away again, yet he’ll never forget ‘home’.

 

And he’s forgotten Clara, though probably not exactly forgotten, but maybe misplaced the memory.

And he wants to remember yet he’s probably scared to – he knows how the story ends.
So he’ll keep himself busy.

“Though I have a broken heart
I’m too busy to be heartbroken
There’s a lot of things that need to be done
Lord I have a broken heart”

 

 

(like I care if both of these I’ve posted before – they’re sad but good!)

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erm – I have no idea what is behind @Supernumerary ‘s decision, but I do hope s/he returns. I really enjoyed your posts. Now I wish I’d said it earlier (as you’re unlikely to read this).

darn.

That wasn’t what I’d come to post (obviously it being me, it was something far more flippant) but I do hope Super returns.

My flippant post was one that I was surprised no one else made (maybe I am simply more silly than everyone else), but I did wonder about the conversation between Jenna Coleman and her partner Kit Harington last year:

“How’s the show going?”
“Great thanks – and yours?”
“Great too. New cast members are fantastic”
“hm, I’m thinking of leaving if I’m honest. Its been a few years and…. well…. maybe I need new roles”
“Really? Its a great gig. They’ll let you know if they want you out I think”
“yeah, but maybe it should be my choice…”
“well, honestly you’re one of the best things in it. If you ask to leave before they’re ready, then it’ll be like a stab in the back!”
“ha ha – yeah, but it won’t be like that. It’ll be something about ‘Crows’ or ‘Ravens’ or something!”
“ha ha – yeah. miss you”

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so, have come the long way around by reading all the comments.

wow.

So, nothing much to add except a couple of things.

I think I have similar reactions to Hell Bent as @tardigrade – for me I liked the episode (acting is great etc), I ‘enjoyed’ it, but I didn’t find it ‘satisfying’.
Clara had died. Now Clara gets to live.
“Having your cake and eating it” sprang to mind.

However, I’ve now read comments here and especially @bluesqueakpip ‘s recent posts and I think in a few days when I get chance, I’ll re-watch with all your thoughts/ reasonings in mind to see if I appreciate it better!

What else…. Clara becomes a story. Really we should have seen this coming!

Tardis Type 40 (chosen so Clara could pilot it? Sentimentality by the Doctor?) and its chameleon circuit. I once had a bonkers theory that I’ve managed to find again (thanks google).

But please. I do not want to read “wiggle” and “Clara” in the same sentence again.

Its… erm… distracting.

;¬)

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I’ve been neglecting this thread recently – apologies.
(tbh I’ve been travelling for work quite a bit, but that’s no excuse).

@craig ‘s done the necessary with The The (always good to hear some overwrought and over-earnest vocals!) so I’ll simply waste people’s time with a snake-based choon (which I really should have posted before now!).

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In terms of themes for this season (I’m sure wiser heads than I will do this better then this) but I like how the premise could begin with:

Who is the monster?

Or

Who is the monster.

The monster within is key to Sleep no More and the Zygon two-parter as well as having references in pretty much all the other episodes (hm, I haven’t double checked so that may not be strictly true, but I think its roughly right).

And in fact, the monster is a pat of us all. So maybe that’s the hybrid – we all are its just that we must choose not to give in to it (that destructive side of us).

[can’t wait for a much fuller explanation – or different explanation! – from others here!!]

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So…. finally caught up with comments and don’t see any Tarot ones so, are we* all agreed it was Judgement this week?

From my book:

“[this card] is a time … to reap the rewards or pay the penalty for past actions. Judgement indicates the end of a chapter and therefore marks a new beginning; but in-between lies a confrontation with the consequences of past choices and actions.”

* by “we” I mean anyone who actually cares which is obviously a minority! 🙂

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@mersey – you may be the first person to ever say that that Clara ain’t no oil painting.

;¬)

@ozitenor – blimey! What a post! I for one would love to hear more (but you’ve set your own bar high!).

@arbutus – at the risk of sounding gushing, your comment to Bluesqueakpip is just ace. Honestly. And Blue’s reasoning and general squeakness as ever deserves it.
[I know this all sounds a bit back-slappy but I think it was &son who reminded me that saying nice things to people doesn’t happen often enough. And he’s a smart bloke.]

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oh and two things:

@puroandson –
&son – I am enjoying your posts enormously, for their intelligence, insight and open-mindedness. Also, you make me laugh in all the right ways (ie with you rather than ‘at’ you in any way). You’re a good bloke.

@everyone else as this is the thread for the episode –
When I realised that the monster was called the Veil I thought of the thing that separates this world from the next/other. And cogs and dials etc always remind me of this famous woodcut.

 

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phew!

both for the episode and for the posts here!

Finally got to the end (of the posts) and there’s the usual higher-level-than-mine understanding of the episode (so thanks – I’ll bare in mind during a re-watch probably tomorrow!)

I have a thought (dangerous I know) that is almost certainly wrong but, that’s what this forum is for!

;¬)

Could the Confession Dial, castle etc actually have been created by the Doctor?

ie he discovers (somehow – I have no idea how) that to get to Gallifrey, he will have to get through an ‘impossible’ barrier (the very thick diamond). Its an impossible barrier… except that ‘eternity’ makes everything possible if you’re persistent enough.

But how would he be persistent enough?

Well, he’d give himself a puzzle and he’d forget he’d given it to himself (as he did in Time Heist).
And it would mean he’d have to suffer a lot but… he chooses to do so because its the right thing to do (ie the only option he sees as working).

In this way, he’d leave the clothes out, the lupe etc to guide him to an answer which guides him to the punching/pecking slowly through the ‘impossible’ wall.

hm, “theories more insane than….”

🙂

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So, I know that I’ve posted either this or something else from the album before but…. well, its fabulous so I make no excuses.

The reason for this one is twofold – its an example of hybrid music* and features a great guitar player (as @puroandson has [have??] mentioned playing guitar)

* yes yes, I know. All music is a hybrid, but this album is a wonderful moment of two cultures combining. This isn’t even the best track on the album!

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Hi all,

@puroandson – good to see you back! &son – great to hear from you (I wish I was as articulate as you when I was…. erm…. actually, I just wish I was as articulate!)

Whether I call you &son, Lion (was that Ichabod? lovely!) or Scion of Puro I’m sure whenever you get chance, we’ll enjoy your thoughts!

And Puro – yep, I’m pretty sure its a shark on his t-shirt too.

@frobisher and @juniperfish (and @kharis if you’re interested!), I’ve thought of Tarot Cards for each episode.
It kind’ve makes a sequence through the Tarot and the only one that doesn’t fit my associations is Sleep no more – so as story structures go, its not a bad theory….(?)

Prologue (Setting out on a fool’s journey)
0. The Fool
– Doctor (or Clara…?)

The Magician’s Apprentice
1. The Magician
– Doctor

The Witch’s Familiar
2. The High Priestess
– Missy

Under the Lake/ Before the Flood
5. The Hierophant
– The Fisher King

The Girl Who Died/ The Woman Who Lived
8. Strength
– Ashildr

The Zygon Invasion/ Zygon Inversion
10. The Wheel (of Fortune)
– Bonnie-as-Clara

Face the Raven
13. Death
– Clara

Sleep No More
18. The Moon
– Le Verrier Spaceship? [I think this is stretching even though the whole thing is ridiculous!!)

HS
20. Judgement
– TBD

HB
21. The World
– Gallifrey

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ooohhh – I have no idea if the episodes are in the ‘wrong’ order but like the idea (unreliable narrators and all that!!).

If we really are seeing a journey based on the Tarot, perhaps we should re-order the episodes based on the ‘traditional’ order of the Tarot?

Now, the only problem with that is:
a) we disagree as to which episode relates to which card*;
b) Moffat may have done a reading and had the series proceed in the same order as the reading (btw I think PK Dick used the I Ching when writing The Man in the High Castle);
c) we might be wrong and Moffat might say “Tarot?? Wha?”

*By the way, we might not only disagree about which episode relates to which card, but we may also have got the wrong Fool.
We all thought that the Madman (in a box) was the Fool.
But perhaps it was Clara (not a “pet” after all). If its her journey we’re seeing, then that might explain why we keep seeing her relationship to the Card (eg her relationship to the Magician; Hanged Man; person who must choose when shown the Wheel of Fortune) etc….

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@pedant – thanks!

@juniperfish – fantastic – a list!! I think I maight suggest a couple of alternatives (as might jpamplore methinks!)

@bendubz – the psychic worm things which acted as lights were… well worms (thus dragon-y)

@jphamlore – I’m liking your current bonkerising (apologies if you don’t consider it as bonkers!). So, The Doctor went to ‘Heaven’ to save Danny and will now go to ‘Hell’ for Clara’s sake (I won’t suggest “saving” her, but she has to be allowed to die).
But who would have created a ‘Hell’ of lost souls? Missy again (She’s done Heaven, now Hell)? And did Missy give the Quantum Shade to Ashildr when she took on looking after the refugees? Or was it the Shadow Proclamation (there were Judoon there, but maybe they were refugees too, but being policemen in this camp as its in their nature)?

Spirits and death-energy (abused by the Fisher King in Under the Lake) – as mentioned before, is this energy needed to get Gallifrey (the World?) back?

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@bluesqueakpip – I don’t believe it!

After all this time, plying us with your erudition, insights and humour, you go and reveal yourself to be *a troll!!!*

Accusations of poor writing and sexism!
And then:

“I have tried to like him. And I just don’t.”
“I’m not even sure I want to watch next Saturday’s episode.”

You’ve played a very long game with us!

;¬)

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@frobisher @starla – yep!

;¬)

Seriously though, Frobisher I agree completely!

@juniperfish – why the Lovers? Though Clara and Danny spring to mind, that could be a bit sentimental. Quickly flicking through the cards, might we get Judgement and The Star at the end?
I think the Star is meant to represent hope (light after darkness).

Not inconceivable he should point to a random star and go there just… well, just because that’s what he does.

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Hi Puro,

Others have been far more eloquent.

All I’ll say is “Fuck this”.

Fuckitfuckitfuckitfuckitbollockstothatandfuckit

I trust and hope that at some point in the future we’ll be graced again by your openness, knowledge of music and general Puro-ness.

take care.

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Hi all – as with most (everyone??) enjoyed this one (if “enjoyed” means watching through my fingers while Clara said goodbye).

Agree with that the lamps make you see what you think you ought to see.

Agree with many also that although Clara may be back (in some way), this should be her ‘death’ (in that she was trying to be noble and brave even if she had misjudged).

In terms of Ravens and Tarot, the only connection I can find is for the Hanged Man.
In the Norse Tarot he is specifically depicted as Odin (who had two ravens – Memory and Thought). And Clara was the Hanged Man earlier in the series.
Now, the entry for the Hanged Man in the book I have is “A sacrifice must be made in order to gain something of great value”.

It is a voluntary sacrifice. The other thing this book says is “The notion of exchanging the mundane for the spiritual is the central theme of The Hanged Man.”

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well @blenkinsopthebrave I did try and come up with a bonkers theory….

but perhaps I was too influenced by @bluesqueakpip ‘s ‘children of Gallifey’ musings.

 

Though now she seems to be advocating ‘happy endings’ for the Doctor and Clara and heaven knows what time in the evening that might air!

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So….. I woke up today with an idea drifting through what counts for a waking mind. In fact two ideas.
Both quite bonkers. And wanting to connect, but I’ve not managed to yet.

So, for the first bonkers thought – Ashildr is finding Claricles throughout Earth history.
She’s meeting them and… what? Does she learn their stories? Does she right them down?
Does she in fact right stories about the Doctor, how he (yet again) saves a planet, saves people.

Let’s say that the pages ripped from Ashildr’s diaries are these stories, learned from the Claricles.

Who would rip out stories about the Doctor? and why?

River? She is a historian I guess.
Missy? She is a nutcase I guess.
Clara?

Perhaps Clara needed to collect them as a book of tales and tell the children of Gallifrey about the good deeds that the Doctor did; how he saved people and was ‘a good man’.

Why?

Well, perhaps because they think of him as a monster, the monster who would destroy them.

And the other bonkers theory?
Perhaps Clara gets to Gallifrey as a witness to the Doctor’s good deeds.

And perhaps because The Doctor wasn’t given extra lives as a gift, but rather so that he could live to face the judgement of the Gallifeyans. To survive to face a(nother) Trial.*

 

 

 

* btw I have no desire to see another Trial of the Doctor! And really, I should’ve left my bonking this morning to just the storytelling Clara, looking after kids; propogating stories…..

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yep @jphamlore – I agree about the Moon (though I don’t actually think Gatiss was aware of the Tarot thing when he originally wrote it, but we don’t care about that – he’s merely the writer!).

I think that card also has something to do with “uncertainty and confusion” (according to my Tarot book) which fits in with everyone’s experience of it!

🙂

I don’t think anyone’s mentioned this, but when Clara was talking about putting “Space” in front of other words and they start going through examples, I was mainly thinking “go on, go on, go on” just waiting for one of them to say “Space Dad”!

;¬)

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Hi @purofilion – you’re giving me credit where none is due (again!)

;¬)

I didn’t mention “eye boogers” I’m afraid.

Though it does make me think of these monsters as being the BoogerMan.

 

 

Yes, I just did that….

[crawls to bed]

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ok – just one more (don’t want to hog the boards).

I liked the conceit of the Sandman if not the lumbering monsters.

Gatiss inverted the usual Sandman – the mythical character who sprinkles sand into the eyes of sleepers to induce (bad) dreams.
Instead, the ‘sand’ you get on waking is part of the monster within being forced out through dreaming it out.

That’s brilliant.
Its also another case of the monster within.

I think @phaseshift got it right with his Amicus call out. The Sandman at the end is reminiscent of Charles Gray talking to camera at the end of portmanteau horrors. Especially with the twist.

So – I’ve posted this before but I’ll post again as its great – if you have impressionable children (or adults) I suggest they watch this just before going to bed.

oh yes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjgHbRrnjhU

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I’ve still only seen this episode once, but I think I agree with @django and others (ie ‘Rasmussen’ has cobbled together an ‘episode’/ a story to entice people to watch his encoded message with which to propgate.

Though for me Rasmussen hasn’t existed for a while. Instead he became the Sandman after experimenting with the upgrade to his Morpheus machine, and that happened before this episode begins.
Now that I think about it, the Sandman and therefore sandmen are fully sentient, not dumb lumbering monsters. That’s just the Rasmussen Sandman getting the others to act like monsters for the benefit of his story.
That’s why it made no sense and why the Doctor couldn’t puzzle it out – it actually was a story he was in, and he couldn’t see the author.

But I have a thought as to how this exists within the context of this arc.

If at the beginning of the next episode we see the Doctor still ruminating about the Sandmen and how it didn’t make sense, imagine this exchange:

Doctor: It just doesn't make sense. It should but it doesn't...
Clara: Oh don't worry. We're safe - you can't always win.

[Doctor looks at Clara with 'that' look; the look suggesting he'll soon lose her]

Doctor: But I'll *try*.

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Macbeth??

Worst Play evah!

Shakey-spear is always too cocky and self-referencing like he’s sooo good.

I wish they’d let Marlowe write an episode.

 

 

[apologies, went over to the Guardian and was below the line…. submerged… under a lake of opinion….]

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well, I watched this on iPlayer on a PC with a dodgy connection for my headphones (a TV that’s broken means someone’s making money out of me when sales time comes!).

So I had a few moments of glitching adding to the general disorientation of the ‘point of view’ camera angles and first person shooter feeling.

Even so – I kinda enjoyed it. ;¬)

I caught some of the things that others have already (Clara in a pod – again; especially with wires to the head; stories as being important; something you see that re-writes you; but scarily the moment that the Doctor calls her “pedant” – is Clara @pedant ?????!!!!?? blimey, I was beginning to think she was merely Clara after all!!)

In terms of Tarot @juniperfish – I’d plump for The Moon. To be honest I don’t think they thought about Tarot for this one but this forum hardly cares about that!! So, in a non-Tarot sense the Moon is associated with sleep and dreams (I think). And in Tarot the Moon is a symbol for uncertainty and fluctuation which I think this episode delivered! 🙂

btw – is Gatiss “yanking our chains” [not heard that expression before this forum mentioned it!] in terms of writing a story (after the furore of Kill the Moon and the Forest one) that made no sense?
Until of course it did make sense at the end (as @phaseshift says in an Amicus horror-film kind’ve way).

;¬)

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hm, just a thought but I’m not sure if we’ve had the Devil as Davros’ Tarot connection.

[apologies if we have!]

The Devil is the deceiver (Satan) but in Tarot is also about dualities (Lucifer is the bringer of light).
And although seemingly often connected to sexual shame, the card may be more about repressed feelings and shame in general being confronted, releasing positive energies.

As I say, just a thought, as well as obvious links to serpents (and yes, still only referring to the only book on Tarot I have!!)

{sigh, and mainly staying away from the SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER thread – also known as the Activity Stream this week – waiting for the episode Sleep No More!!}

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@scaryb – great song.
I knew the links between Nick Lowe and Elvis Costello but only knew of Costello’s version.

A good day to hear it.

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Evenin’ all.

I’ve still only seen the Zygon Invasion/ Inversion once (tiiiiiimmmmmme!!!) but will admit that I’d never heard of the TV show Truth or Consequences (nor the town).

Soooooo…. I found this riveting documentary on it.

(At around 3 mins there’s a bit which shows a box with two buttons the contestant needs to choose from).

If you like the main actor who re-creates the host, here he is singing a Beatles song.

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Just catching up – really enjoying the thoughts on this two parter (and though I liked it, sympathies with those who thought there was something ‘off’ with the conclusion. For me I’m still trying to work out if the Doctor making them choose 15 times – until they ‘get it right’ – is actually the right thing to do….).

But just because no one else has mentioned the one I’m thinking of, I think this week’s Tarot mention is…. The Wheel of Fortune.
Mainly as “wheel” is mentioned by the Doctor, but also as the whole “which button to press?” is a TV ‘wheel of fortune’ style of dilemma (and Hughie Green of course).

But also the Wheel of Fortune is (I think from reading the only book about Tarot I have!) about “new beginnings, a new start”, “the best way to work with the wheel is to accept its motion and try to live with what it brings”.
Its about choices.

But it also seems to reflect/remind us of the rise and fall of people, that change is constant.

 

 

 

Oh, and rather than create two postings (and hog the activity updates!) can I just say how disappointed I am with recent troll activity.

Barely registered a 2.5 on the Hayness Scale.

tsk.

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travelling for work (itd sound glamourous but aint!) but thought I’d play to the gallery with this:

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wow – @countscarlioni – amazing not-actually-bonkers-bonkerising!!

Kate not really ‘Kate’ but having voluntarily being Zygonned to deal with this threat – brilliant!!
The Osgood Box being a placebo – brilliant again!

I have nothing to add to everyone’s great bonkerising and great insights into this episode.
Instead, some minor spots of ‘colour’:
It begins with “once upon a time…” – a really interesting reminder of the importance storytelling in this series (especially with this episode which is so based on ‘real’ recent events);
“The Brits” (rather than ‘the muslims’ etc) were the invaders in the town of TorC.
The sign with the scrawled “No Brits” deliberately recalls the signs in lodging-homes in 60’s London of “No Blacks No Irish No dogs”;
The tumbleweed seen when Kate enters the town of TorC, becomes almost poignant when we later realise what it is (rather than my initial reaction of “tsk! c’mon! enough already!”).
The school called Draketown – “drake” is another name for ‘dragon’, so serpents again…

But these are all silly asides rather than any insights.

I really enjoyed this episode and really enjoyed that I had to be very aware throughout to get all the plot elements (and even then needed a second watch).
“Romp” it wasn’t!

🙂

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@phaseshift

@phuck-yeah!

A righteous rant that deserves a raised glass and a fair bit of table-thumping*

 

 

 

* with the other hand obviously.

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oops – nearly forgot it was halloween!

So we need some scary music!

I found this version of a song I’m sure we’ve done before, and I think that its from the same TV show that gives us the second choon which is…… barmy.

;¬)

so this isn’t necessarily scary but…… its Bongwater

Its a really dull interview with Sanborn for 2 mins and then… Screaming Jay Hawkins!!!
and then Bongwater!!

Honestly you should listen to and wade through the boring interview to ‘get’ how weird the music following it is – it makes Jools Holand tame.

🙂

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@purofilion – here’s a curio:

The Parting Glass sung by Ronnie Drew (Dubliners) from…. the hangman’s platform!

Nice bit of gallows humour too!

;¬)

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ah @brewski I think the idea that death releases energy (in all episodes so far) and opens up dimensions etc is definitely a way to bring back Gallifrey.

Its almost not bonkers!

😉

But not sure if Clara sacrificing herself for that is where I see it going but what do I know!

On an aside, in terms of Clara I see her as the “bootstrap girl” – a loop in terms of existing so that she can save Smith by jumping into the Doctor’s timestream so that she could splinter into linear Claricles, one of which is born into 11’s timestream so that she can exist at the point where she jumps into his timestream.

However she’s pulled out of his timestream, so that she can be both a loop, but her timeline now has a dangly bit, that will have an end.

Like a … noose.

8¬o

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Got a few tracks still to listen to (and gonna enjoy Cheap Sunglasses again!).

Here’s a song for a companion one for Ashildr:

(not saying its a totally right fit for her, but the the idea of “bad luck” and some electric geetar… seemed like fun!)

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It seems this is the 12″ version – but it was the best audio version I could find.

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@ichabod – belated Happy Birthday from me too!
Can’t add anything to what Craig said so well, just really glad you and others share so much.

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So thanks to now knowing “hildr” means ‘war’ and thinking about the numerous Osgoods, Oswins etc could Maisie’s character actually become the Minister for War Hilda Ogden?

It would be a brave direction for Moffat but one I think he could pull off.

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So @Purofilion asked me what I thought of The Doors in relation to Fire in the Water as a lyric.

Which confused me a bit as I didn’t recognise it as a Doors lyric.
So – a quick google later and it turns out that it is a lyric by a band called Feist.
Apparently used in Breaking Dawn, about vampires and immortality and stuff.

Its new to me (for some reason I’ve not bothered listening to her stuff before):

For what its worth I was really into the Doors age 18-21 but since then… not so much.
Not sure why. I guess the tracks I might listen to would be the straight up blues/R&B like LA Woman or Maggie Mcill rather than the more sprawling When the Music’s over or The (ponderous) End.

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Just wanted to say “hi and welcome @starla – fantastic theorising*!”

* ie I agree 🙂

 

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ah – interesting that there’s some sympathy with my rambling (or thanks to people being kind! 🙂 )

Really interested in hearing about Angels and Silence @denvaldron as I’m curious about their similarity to children’s’ games.

But as I have no kids or relations that young I have no idea idea if it worked like that (ie if kids played as Silence or Angels in the playground).

How kids react to monsters is really interesting in terms of what they mean as things that scare.

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Just generally mulling over Monsters (after @denveldron ‘s more knowledgeable production-focused mulling).

I’m still thinking of Monsters as animalistic horrors that simply act out their nature. Villains have schemes and plans.
Monsters hiss and roar whereas villains speak – they have dialogue with the hero.

I remember coming across a Freud-esque idea that the Werewolf (in the movies from 50’s 60’s) represented the fears of teenage men who cannot control their roaring hormones from attacking girls (a terrible fear for girls, but also a fear held by the boys of losing self-control).
Likewise the Vampire represented the seducer, for girls someone for whom you lose self-control (and you know you shouldn’t) and for boys the rival for those girls.

Which kinda made sense in the context of Horror date-films that teenagers went to.

Zombies (it seems to me) simply represent your own death – they are obviously decomposing corpses. Their animation draws attention to their dead-ness (flesh falling away from bones etc).
The only sexual connotation of zombies would be disease (STDs).

Which helps not one jot when thinking of Who monsters as they can’t really be sexual fears in a family show. (plus maybe we’ve moved on from armchair-Freud finking).

In Who – it seems we have a lot of military fears.
Daleks (memory of recent war with Nazis), Sontarans (total war), Ice Warriors (at least AG who I can’t see as much different from BG Sontarans*), Cybermen now are ‘simply’ an army, even UNIT is a reflection on the way the military are in charge when we are in trouble (and not necessarily reassuringly so).
Not quite as armchair-Freud-lite as the mulling about classic monsters, but maybe the classic Who recurring monsters aren’t monsters – they’re villains. Its the Morans-dragging-axes, that are the monsters (that rarely return).

Is it because in Who, the memorable enemies need to talk?

 

 

 

* though I love Dan Starkey I wonder if his singularly funny Strax has now made Sontarans entirely comedic, requiring the return of the Ice Warriors to represent ‘war-riors’. It will take a while for Sontarans to regain Lynx’s threat. I have a personal feeling that Moffat hates what Dan did yet seeing how brilliant it was begrudgingly kept it on.

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