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@janetteb      Goodness. That is frightening. And truly, as @puroandson says, a dreadful sign of the new times we are living in, along with drought in California and flooding of towns here on the prairies. In Vancouver we are never directly threatened by fire, but the forest is close enough that we have sometimes experienced smoke and smog in the summer fire season. The towns in the interior have a difficult time. But what you are describing sounds truly terrifying, and I feel for those whose lives have been affected. I hope your family is safe where you are!

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And now for something completely different! We often talk about the music of Doctor Who and what it brings to the show. Imagine, if you will, Doctor Who without Murray Gold? Or… Star Wars Minus Williams.

 

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@jphamlore  @puroandson  @nerys

More and more, I think that death and it’s various opposites are an ongoing theme. There was the Fisher King stealing people’s deaths. There were all those abandoned Daleks that were apparently living on in some sort of undying agony. There is of course Ashildr, made immortal by the Doctor (and I wonder what happened to her immortal highwayman friend?). Even the Sandmen could be seen that way, as rather than dying, Rasmussen became a Sandman (a hybrid, in fact). So could Osgood, as theoretically, as long as there are always two of her, she could go on and on. As Nerys said, the Doctor was outraged that the Fisher King denied people their deaths, but he himself stole Ashildr’s. So I wonder, has someone stolen Clara’s? As I suggested earlier, I don’t think she’s still alive, but she may not be dead, either?

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@ichabod       I think that Rigsy’s concern came from the fact that the Doctor had never, ever called him by name before, and to do so now would indicate that something was very wrong. He preferred the dismissive nicknames to actual concern on the Doctor’s part.

I definitely agree that I wouldn’t want to see Clara’s ending undermined. But I do wonder, about the trail of pods that the series has followed, and also the hybrid and immortality references. What I’m actually wondering is not whether Clara might survive, but whether she might be changed somehow, as Danny was. She could never come back and be Clara again, so the Doctor’s loss would still stand. But the pods could be coincidental, and the hybrid theme could resolve in any number of ways unrelated to Clara.

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I like the notion that we are being shown the series in the order that it occurred for Clara but not the order that it occurred for the Doctor. That would make a rather interesting arc, and a reminder of the timey-wimeyness of the Doctor’s life that we haven’t seen since the 50th.

@nerys     Regarding a companionless Doctor: For myself, I think it would be interesting to spend a while seeing the Doctor through the eyes of a series of people to whom he is new, who don’t know him as intimately as Clara did, who are seeing him with fresh eyes. There has been a tendency on the show for the new companion to have an initial short adjustment and then just fit in effortlessly, with loyalties and attachment somewhat built-in. It might be fun to see some distrust, some uncertainty. And also, frankly, a series of temporary companions could bring a little needed (in my view, anyway) diversity to the companion job. Men, aliens, women over the age of thirty? But frankly, I don’t hold out much hope for it.

@ichabod   I have a tendency to create coherence for myself even where it’s lacking.    So do I! I suspect that many of us who tend to enjoy the show more or less uncritically are the same. That’s why glitches in the plotting or narrative logic bother me less than inconsistencies in character.

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I have read some interesting discussion here on the portrayal of Clara in this episode, and the suggestion that her fate suggests that the female companion can’t be too much like the male Doctor. Truly, this wasn’t my take at all. The Doctor said something like, “I’m less breakable than you”, and clearly it’s true. He is a Time Lord, Clara is human. How many times has the Doctor had to regenerate because he took one risk too many, or because he sacrificed his life for someone else’s? Because of regeneration, he could get away with that behaviour. Clara couldn’t, and the Doctor tried throughout the series to warn her of that. He was clearly worried all along that she was taking risks incompatible with her humanity.

@avaris said “Both, the Doctor and Clara have the duty of care towards their companion.  It reminds me of the Parting of the Ways which Ninth sacrifice himself to save Rose.  Her death also resembles Tenth dying for Wilf.” Others have pointed out that it was no coincidence that this story hung upon Rigsy, Clara’s companion from Flatline, where Clara became the Doctor, and the Doctor ominously said that that wasn’t necessarily a good thing. He was right.

Ever since the Doctor’s regeneration and expression of his need of her, Clara has been leaning this way. I think that losing Danny rather glued it in for her. Perhaps if he had lived, she could have moved on from the Doctor, as Amy did. Because Amy showed the same risk-taking tendency at times, but there was always Rory. But she tried living her human life without Danny and it clearly didn’t work for her. So off she went, becoming increasingly Doctor-like, and having to ask the Doctor more and more often, “Can you fix this?” Until, finally, he couldn’t.

And having been through the bitter loss, she can now tell the Doctor, as Danny told her, that he must live on. She tells him, “Be a Doctor”, and in doing so, saves him one last time.

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I never did get around to commenting on this episode, and I see that much of the conversation has now moved over to the spoilers thread, which I have been avoiding. But I liked the episode, and I found Clara’s death pretty moving. Like a few others, I wish that it had been a bit more meaningful (as in dying to save someone etc.), but it was perfectly logical as storytelling, in terms of Clara’s character arc. I thought the underlying notion of trap streets was great fun, and excellently brought to life.

The character of the Doctor was beautifully defined throughout the episode… The scene where he saw Rigsy’s daughter and seemingly fell in love: “Did you make this human?… She’s brilliant.” Rigsy’s instant understanding that the Doctor calling him by name could only be bad: “Don’t use my name… Call me Local Knowledge.” His beautifully underplayed horror and sadness that the moment he had been dreading had arrived, and the initially uncontrolled fury that he unleashed on Ashildr, only to reign it in almost to nothing after Clara’s last words to him. The writing was fabulous and Capaldi’s performance was flawless.

I don’t think it was in any way obvious that Clara’s plan wouldn’t have worked, even on rewatch. I listened to what the alien told her and it didn’t really contain any clues– “You can pass it on, but you can’t cheat it” suggests that Clara could also pass it on. Also, she would have no way of knowing that passing it on meant Ashildr lost control of it. So I really didn’t think that Clara died due to stupidity, or even too much faith in the Doctor, as she believed that Ashildr could save her at any time.

The difference between “staying” and “running” was definitely pointed out to us, so that when Clara decided to “face the raven”, I was waiting for something different to happen, for her not to die but perhaps to transform in some cool way. I suppose it’s possible that this might still happen. I liked that Danny got a second shot at dying, to make it more meaningful… Will Clara get one too? Also, we’ve had all these references to Clara in pods, so it’s hard to imagine that she wasn’t put in one again, given that there was a handy stasis pod right there! And the “hybrid” theme has not yet paid off, so I’m guessing that Clara’s story hasn’t been completely told.

I’m really looking forward to next week, I’d forgotten about the “all Capaldi all the time” episode we were promised. As I could watch him all day, I’m definitely up for it. As for what’s awaiting the Doctor, I’m hoping that the people guessing “Time Lords/Gallifrey” are correct. I can see that it might well be Missy and the Daleks, based on our last glimpse of them, but for me, that would be dramatically a bit boring. Missy was a big reveal at the finale of Series 8, but would be anticlimactic this time round. I’m hoping that the ending of The Witch’s Familiar was more to set up a later reappearance in the old fashioned “Yes, Doctor, I survived!” manner.  🙂

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@blenkinsopthebrave    You disappoint me. On first glance, I had a vivid picture in my mind of Blenkinsop huddled in a cocoon of snow as the early morning sun lit the Ontario landscape!

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When I was ten or eleven, we used to watch old episodes of Star Trek as a family. We saw the one with the shape-shifting salt-sucking monster, and I was terrified. I walked out half way through and refused to have anything further to do with Star Trek for quite a while. It kept me awake nights for a long time. And yet my sister, three years younger, had no issue with it.

It’s a dicey question, this one of age-appropriateness. I’m not sure that the old rating system has a lot of relevance these days; I would be more inclined to a look at the IMDB website where they get very specific about the content. Then parents can judge based on themselves and their own kids. At 16, my son is the boss of his own viewing nowadays, and he watches all kinds of things that would not be to my taste at all. And he watches some things that I have also seen and liked, but there are certain things that we wouldn’t be comfortable watching together (usually the ones with a certain level of language or sexual content).

And while I think I agree that certain episodes should perhaps have come with extra warnings for sensitive/younger viewers, this certainly isn’t a new problem. There were some carnage-filled episodes of the old series that I’m not sure would have been appropriate for little kids.

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@puroandson     Well, where would we be if we couldn’t laugh? I’m laughing right now at @tardisblue‘s typo about “a gentile hug”. 🙂 I guess mine would be a gentile hug as well! But bonus points for the hybrid reference.

I don’t LOL but I do OMG occasionally. And I definitely watch every episode twice, once to suck it in a kind of joyful haze, and again a day later to catch all the things I miss the first time around. (And to make notes for this Forum, because you can take an academic out of Uni, but can’t take Uni out of the academic, or something of the sort!) @ichabod, I’m pretty sure the old show wasn’t this “packed”. I think it’s designed nowadays for multiple viewings and bonkers theorizing.

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@puroandson             Longest month of my life.

Welcome, Ilion! As Puro has often shared your thoughts about the show, I don’t feel as if you are a “new” member at all. I am “Arbutus” after the lovely trees that grow along the shoreline here in southwestern British Columbia. Hope you are soon over the cold, we have all been fighting them off in our house, too.

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My very dear Puro,

Your presence on the Forum has helped make it a better, kinder place. You have brought to all the discussions an energy, warmth, and emotional honesty that helped move it beyond the level of any other forum I have visited. Your kindness in welcoming new posters, your enthusiastic reception of people’s theories, and your generous praise of the talents of others on the Forum has been endless. You have always made me feel special, and I’m sure there are others who would say the same. I think we could all use more of that.

My heart is with you and the Ilion Family.

Lovingly, Arbutus

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@purofilion  @catladymeow  @lisa  @soundworld

Because Puro went off topic and I am resolutely staying there, I have moved this to the sofa, so as not to be modded!

Puro said:    He still remains my favourite Doctor although I’m beginning to think the word favourite just doesn’t work with this show at all.    You’re absolutely right. Back before the Gap, I always said that Tom Baker was my favourite Doctor, but really, everyone else brought something worthwhile or relatable to the role, and every era had stories that I loved and some that I didn’t. Nowadays, in the modern parlance, I refer to Four not as my favourite Doctor, but simply as “my” Doctor. The Platonic ideal, but not necessarily better in every way. Catlady, I too liked McCoy. I loved his elfin charm and the way it could turn suddenly dark. I loved his fearlessness, his crankiness, his idealism, and the warmth of his smile.

As to After Gap Doctors, I have enjoyed them all in different ways, but Capaldi is definitely “my” Doctor for the modern era. I loved Eleven, but somehow, Twelve just resonates for me more. He frightens me and delights me. He makes me catch my breath, and laugh out loud.

But as Puro says, the Doctors are one Doctor. Yes, just like a sonata, or a symphony, even. Different motives coming to the fore at different times, different movements in different moods: the brilliant allegro, the heart-wrenching adagio, the robust and humorous scherzo, the grand and triumphant finale (maybe it’s a fugal one- I think the Doctor must be fugal, with all those intricate subjects and countersubjects, retrograde inversions, and emotionally satisfying cadences). But all one work, to be examined and appreciated as a whole.

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@janetteb    I also like the Paris peace symbol. The desire to express solidarity is very integral, isn’t it? My son wore his Paris-St. Germain jersey to soccer practice tonight!

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@drben    I’d rather they take risks and occasionally fail than never take risks at all.   This, absolutely.  @bluesqueakpip says it perfectly: the risky episodes, even when they fail all or in part, are what lead us to the unexpectedly wonderful ones!

@starla   Rasmussen might have been better off just embedding the eye dust inducing signal into a cute cat video    Yes, it would have been game over for my whole family in that case!  🙂

@whisht    A big smiley-faced “like” for your Guardian BTL Macbeth critique!  🙂

Plot-wise, what I have taken from second viewing is this. The Doctor proposes that the creatures are “evolved sleep dust” and they have eaten the crew. Rassmussen never says that this is true. What he does say is that his Patient Zero will spread the infection on Tritan. But this is a lie. The “electronic signal” that makes the Morpheus pod work is the same as the one that is embedded in the video. Rather than having been eaten by Sandmen, the crew members would appear to have become Sandmen. So I would guess that Rassmussen wasn’t actually killed by the gun fire because he was already dust inside. But he was being pulled apart like all the other Sandmen, by Neptune’s gravity. So did he or did he not transmit the video before crumbling to dust altogether? My personal guess is “not”.

The Doctor was on the verge of guessing the truth, when he said, “Like a story.” Given a little more time, he might have gotten to the truth. Maybe he did afterward.

Re @purofilion’s list. @soundworld, I also noticed the connection to Before the Flood during my second viewing. @lisa   this season its all about Clara who keeps ‘plugging in’ over and over.   Except the Mire helmet, Clara didn’t wear that, did she? But Ashildr did, and her death and life seem to be connected to the arc in some way. So I think that all these techs are indeed something connected to the “hybrid” notion that Missy implanted in our consciousness at the start of the series. Add Davros’ reference to a Time Lord hybrid and I really am starting to believe that Clara is set to end up on Gallifrey. Whatever it is, I doubt that her fate will be as simple as death. We are being given too many clues leading away from that.

One quirky thing that amused me, second time through: The Twelfth Doctor always seems a bit taken aback by what people see on the psychic paper!

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@mudlark    I stand, instead, with the human race, in all its complexity and confusion.

Now there’s a statement that is one hundred percent Doctor!   🙂

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@miapatrick   Yes, for a teacher, and educated person generally, I would have thought she would assume that most people would know the genesis of “Morpheus”. But as @steve-thorp points out, she also didn’t recognize the Shakespeare quote. Hm. Have to say, the Clara as hybrid theory seems increasingly certain. And as others have pointed out, the Doctor’s promise to “fix” Clara was a bit muted, to say the least. It remains to be seen exactly how it will play out.

So, would the same gravity from Neptune that destroyed the Sandmen eventually destroy the station? And hence the video?

@janetteb    I too liked the Sunmakers. I didn’t realize that it had received poor reviews. Too political for some, maybe?

@spacedmunkee  I like your list of callbacks! As for the Silurians, I think it was referencing the fact that Silurians are misnamed based on actual earth history.

@tommo   Yes, I thought of Colony Sarf as well!

@jphamlore   No you are not. I absolutely loved Robot of Sherwood! It has one of my all-time favourite lines, the one about, “After Nottingham… Derby!”  🙂

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@craig      I’m with @blenkinsopthebrave, I like the message on the homepage. Coming from a country made up almost entirely of immigrants, I tend to view a flag as representative of the “people in a place” rather than something race-specific. I’ve spent some time in Paris over the years, and it’s one of my favourite cities; most recently, we stayed for 10 days in the 10th district, and really enjoyed the wonderful cosmopolitan, youthful feel of the neighbourhood. My heart bleeds to see it in the news in such a terrible way.

I was move to see that the Met opened their Saturday afternoon matinee with a collective singing of the Marseillaise. Again, arguably a somewhat more militaristic piece of music than Lennon’s “Imagine”, but I think that the intent was clear.

http://www.nytimes.com/video/arts/music/100000004038218/the-met-opera-sings-la-marseillaise.html

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Well, this was different, and I enjoy different.  🙂  The previous pair took on racism and terrorism, this week we get the dangers of the corporate agenda, science, and too much TV! A fun, creepy, arc-light episode that made a great breather after the socio-political drama of the last couple of weeks, and the ongoing foreshadowing of Clara’s end.

I enjoyed the clues of the shifting perspective, and the Doctor occasionally looking straight at us through Clara’s eyes. I really liked this glimpse of a whole new bit of our future that we haven’t encountered before. I could have seen more details of this society, I found it fascinating. There was a certain low-key quality to the Doctor in this: calmly disabling the Chordettes (“No more of that”); “Your lot… the Human Race”. Even his supreme moment of disgust at what we are capable of, was delivered in a controlled way that was very effective.

Tough end for most of an interesting crew. Poor Deep-Ando dying horribly because he couldn’t quite remember the words to “Mr. Sandman”, while I thought that, for a very undeveloped aside, the Chopra/474 relationship was touchingly done. And a suitably disturbing ending.

Another music reference, are we keeping track of these?  🙂

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I can’t say often enough how fabulous I think Capaldi’s Doctor has become. And I loved him from the start, but he just gets better and better. He encapsulates the double-sidedness of the Doctor’s personality to perfection, going from the light and goofy– “You can use mine. They’re sonic” and “poncing around in big planes”- to all the intensity of the scene in the Black Archive.

In the first part of the scene, he is us. He asks Bonnie exactly what I have often wanted to ask of people who threaten my way of life, if I could ever get them to look me in the eye: What are you thinking, what do you actually want?? Asking with all the contempt and frustration that I sometimes feel. Then the contempt turns to anger, and it is a wonder to behold. His fury at the memories that have caused him so much pain, and at the people who are forcing him to relive them, and their lack of insight. This bit brought tears even on second viewing. I expect I could watch that scene repeatedly and never grow tired of it. And his heartfelt “thank you” to Kate, when she closed the box.

As we are now down to four episodes remaining (two two-parters, I believe), I wonder if what we have just seen will prove to be the series final transcendent high before we begin to spiral down into tragedy. It is feeling more and more as though Clara’s departure will be a tragedy of some sort. Personally, I no longer think the Doctor has actually seen Clara’s future. He genuinely thought, for a brief time, that she had been killed by the Zygons. I suppose he could have believed that time was being re-written, but dramatically it doesn’t make sense to have him seriously believing that she has been killed by Zygons when he has seen her real end. (Although I do like the suggestion that the future has already happened and this is the past.) However, he certainly seems to know that something is coming!

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After rewatching both halves back to back, there are a few things that stood out for me.

At the very beginning, in the video made by the Osgoods, they describe the Zygons as a peace-loving race who embed themselves in other cultures and live out their lives peacefully. I had missed the implications of this the first time around, but of course, we have been told before the action even begins that merging their identity with that of other races is normal for them, telling us that  Bonnie’s uprising is exactly as the Doctor describes it, a teenage temper tantrum.

Osgood apparently went to Truth or Consequences before trouble erupted there. Was she there to check on the well-being of the Zygons hidden there, or did she suspect that it was about to become a flashpoint? It seems to have been around the same time that the little blonde Zygon commanders became aware of trouble, so I suspect the latter. And I must admit, I am still wondering why Kate didn’t take back up with her!

As far as how Kate knew all that she did after taking out the Zygon trying to kill her, Bonnie called Kate, not the other way round. Kate was taken to the pod place by two Zygons. She saw Clara’s pod then, so that is how she knew where to take the Doctor. (How did people ever sort this stuff out before we had replays?  🙂  )

Oh, and one more thing… why did the Doctor label the buttons “truth” and “consequences”? He can’t have known that trouble would break out in a town of that name, and the phrase would eventually become the motto of a dissident faction.

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@miapatrick    I like your point that the treaty was negotiated by people who couldn’t remember which side they were on. This should actually make it a pretty good treaty, inasmuch as both sides are able to see things from two points of view, something that would be nice to have in real life!

@bluesqueakpip’s comments about guilt and forgiveness were bang on, I thought. The Doctor also made the point that taking the first steps, breaking the cycle, was incredibly courageous, and it is true on both sides. Laying down of weapons, yes, but also rehabilitation rather than retribution. He understands perfectly well that our instinct is toward punishment, because of that same concern for “fairness” that Bonnie expressed. (BTW, didn’t her expression look just exactly like that of a sulky teenager? Coleman was fabulous in this!) @Supernumary, there’s also a community service sentence where former gang members visit schools to talk to kids about the risks of the gangster lifestyle.

@django and others    As far as I can see, the only thing that we know for sure happened 14 (or was it 15?) previous times, was that the treaty broke down in some manner and the truth about the boxes was discovered by Kate. We are given no more details than that, and personally, I choose to believe that the previous situations were perhaps further from the brink than this time, simply because it would rob this story of some of its power if it has all happened over a dozen times before. IMO, anyway.

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@miapatrick   It’s a good point about Bonnie’s insistence that she was Bonnie. She was so determined to be seen as Zygon rather than human, that she introduced herself to Clara in that exact way upon replication, which struck me as very odd at the time. It’s a moving irony that in the end, she chooses to become the hybrid after all.

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@juniperfish    a complexity at the heart of multiculturalism.    Yes. But not an irreconcilable one. We haven’t really been shown anything (I don’t think) about Zygon culture, but some core values at least must be similar to ours as many Zygons seem to have assimilated happily into Earth society. But we are not always great at remembering that outward appearances (and surface cultural differences) usually mask a core that is no different than our own. I
suppose that the next logical development for the Zygons (once they can move beyond the desire to win through revolution) would be their very own civil rights movement. Zygons who refuse to “pass”, and possibly pay the price at first, until the moral authority of their stand forces the backward to catch up with them!

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@phaseshift and others      Yes, I meant to add that Coleman was fantastic. There really were two completely different characters in the room, and she completely sold me as the Zygon rebel. I actually thought for a moment that the Doctor was not going to win her over, she had that perfect look of someone being offered a helping hand off the cliff and refusing to take it.

Actually, @osgood1066, it was Clara who stopped the Doctor destroying Gallifrey. Bad Wolf/The Moment clearly didn’t want the Doctor to push the button, but she had not managed to convince him not to do it. It was Clara, talking to Eleven, that managed to stop him and make him realize that it was time to “be a Doctor”.

@starla    I’d forgotten about Jac! Yes, I guess she must really have died. Too bad, I liked her. But I think that, yes, many people were killed, hence Bonnie saying, “After all that I’ve done?” On another note, I think that the people watching in the housing estate were indeed Zygons.

@nerys    I’m not convinced that there is a Zygon Kate. A Zygon took Kate’s form at the original treaty negotiation, but we don’t know that the Zygon kept that form afterward. Since no mention was ever made, I’m inclined to think it didn’t.

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Five rounds rapid!!!!!!    🙂   Best of the series for me, without doubt. I was riveted start to finish.

I felt this cemented a return to the Doctor as a master of rhetoric. His scene with Bonnie was enthralling. “Oh, it’s not fair. Well, my TARDIS doesn’t work properly.” And his description of his own experience in the Time War brought tears to my eyes. I had the passing thought earlier that the Doctor was really taking a back seat to others throughout this two-parter, and then when crunch time came, it was all Doctor, front and centre, talking the aliens down as he has done for centuries.

I really enjoyed Osgood (Petronella?). I loved her perceptions about the Doctor’s character, her intuition about how he was feeling, her encouraging him that Clara might be still alive. I had guessed that Kate might have survived her encounter with the Zygon and been faking, because as others pointed out, there is precedent for that!  🙂  But her line to the Doctor about how she survived did in fact make me squeeeee. And kudos to the ones who pointed out the connection between the Osgood Box and the Moment.

Altogether, a totally satisfying outing for me. It’s really hard for me to see how the series can get better than this!

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I like @jphamlore‘s notion that it was the death of the Osgood “sister” that triggered the problems with the Zygons. This would also support the idea that it was Zygon Osgood that died. It seems likely that Zygons can recognize other Zygons more readily than humans can. I also like the idea that the surviving Osgood might have gone “undercover” with the Zygon faction.

Good point also by @bluesqueakpip about the likelihood of Zygons being UNIT soldiers. It would then explain what appear to be Zygon remains after Bonnie orders the “traitors” to be killed.

@purofilion        Mind you, when the soldier asked about his favourite teddy bear I wouldn’t be able to remember (his or anyone else’s) if 8 soldiers were pointing AKs at me.      Actually, I had the opposite thought, that as a mom, there is no way in life, short of dementia, that I would ever forget that fact about my son’s childhood! But the soldier was clearly well aware that this wasn’t really his mom. But knowing with the head, and pulling the trigger, are very different things.

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So after a second viewing, I’m more confused than I was before! But for what it’s worth, here are my thoughts.

As others have said, the use of the word “traitor” is confusing. The first time we hear it, I think, is when the two little girls/Zygon commanders are killed, and the Zygon says, “We are the Zygon commanders now. All traitors will be killed.” I would take this to refer to peaceful Zygons, rather than humans. (Although they might well intend to kill humans as well!)

The first time we see the electrified fibre remains, it is when the two Zygon commanders are killed with a flash of red firepower. We never see this again. We only see the threat of killing and the remains afterward. This is also the only time we can be absolutely certain who is being killed, these are definitely Zygons.

When Osgood is taken prisoner, she is shot with blue bolts rather than red. This is also true of Clara. We don’t actually see what was done to Kate, but she was duplicated, so it’s fair to assume that, like Clara, she has not been reduced to a cotton ball.

We don’t see Jac and the UNIT soldiers reduced to fibre. We see a few piles of remains and Bonnie watching as the last couple of Zygons walking away. We assume that everyone has been killed, but confusingly, Bonnie said, “Kill the traitors.” So possibly a few of the soldiers were in fact Zygons (peaceful ones) and were killed, while the rest were zapped with blue bolts and taken away? Nor do we actually see the UNIT soldiers in the church being killed, only the remains. We don’t know whose remains those are, or how long they have been there. The commander assumes they are the remains of her men, but are they?

Bonnie says to the Doctor, “They’re all dead.” But Clara at least is not, because we saw her in a pod. So Bonnie could be lying about the others as well.

Lots of questions, no answers! And it’s only Tuesday.

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@mudlark @winston

I think that Tesco must share certain qualities with Canadian Superstore (fondly referred to in our house as “Stupidstore”)? I have never shopped there on my own account, but I used to have to go there in my role as a school volunteer, and I always came out absolutely convinced that I had just experienced humanity at its worst–  selfish, thoughtless, and well, stupid!

I’m fortunate to have a smallish grocery store near me that I seem to be in and out of almost daily. While it continually aggravates me with its inexplicable merchandising decisions and its tendency to run out of whatever it is I need, I am always restored at the end by the humanity and friendliness of all the clerks, some of whom have been working there as long as I have lived in the neighbourhood.

Sadly, though, I will have to go up the road to the government store for the Luxury Mind Bleach.  🙂

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Thank you @purofilion, @bluesqueakpip, and everyone else for sharing your experiences with the evil of all those who would force their worldview on others. So many of us (perhaps most, even all of us) have been touched in some way, directly or indirectly, by these events. I concur with everyone who has said that if something that reaches as many young people as Doctor Who can start the conversation that every family should be having, this can only be a good thing.

Like Puro, I am fortunate to have been born in a country which boasts numerous freedoms, because some of my grandparents had the courage to flee from oppression. This is not to say that those who stayed had a lesser courage; many of them are today struggling to take control of their nation’s destiny. But Canada welcomed my grandparents and invited them to help build a new nation, then more recently, chose to try and close those doors to others desperately in need of help, rejecting and fearing them because of their differences, because they, unlike my ancestors, are neither white-skinned nor Christian, and we are encouraged to fear them. Happily, in our recent election, sufficient people were repelled by this ideology that we “kicked the bastards out”.

Doctor Who has always told us that we are more alike than different. In the Whoniverse, we are humans in a universe of aliens; and the program has always shown us that even many of those aliens share much in common with us. The Doctor has always urged his companions, his friends, and all of humanity, to be better, while the show itself has always urged the same on us, the viewers. It’s only sad that, fifty-two years on, we still need the lesson.

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@blenkinsopthebrave      I am also settling in for a rewatch this morning (I will try to do the ironing simultaneously, which sort of works!). That scene is one of the bits that I want to recheck as well, because I agree with you that I’m not convinced that Jac and the others are dead. Ditto for Kate.

I’m not quite sure about the whole business about not needing to keep the humans alive. Because we just don’t know how true that is. Osgood could simply have made it up, to try and keep alive the question of which sister she is. (Interesting that she wears the Doctor’s old question marks, given her new status as Osgood Who.

By the way, I loved that conversation between the Doctor and Osgood. There was a lovely calm feeling to it, and the Doctor looked very pleased in an understated kind of way. I begin to get the feeling that, although Twelve is different from the much more flirty Eleven, he is not above a bit of a flirt with those he likes. Question mark underpants????   🙂   I’m beginning to wonder if Zygon hybrid Osgood might not be about to travel with the Doctor for a bit!

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@phaseshift     That mural is great. Epic, in fact.

I like the “mind bleach”– the nasty chemical version of the memory worm?

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@purofilion    In Canada, there is one little corner of northeastern BC, and the entire province of Saskatchewan, that do the Queensland thing. God’s time, and so on. The thing is that there are way way way more dairy cows in Quebec and Ontario and they don’t seem to suffer from the time change there. But whatever! Twice every year, the rest of us get to listen to people complain about it. My only (minor) gripe was when we shifted, along with the US, to an expanded DST, so the clocks don’t go back until the beginning of November, which is irritatingly right after Halloween, which means in turn that it doesn’t get dark as early as it used to on the 31st, and parents with younger kids have to wait an extra hour before taking them out. Not an issue for me anymore, obviously!  🙂

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@purofilion    If they’re shooting at you, you’re doing something right.

Absolutely true. And, I might add, if Boy Ilion is confused by the family dinner complete with internet, then you are most definitely doing something right!  🙂

You know, it occurs to me that the callback to Day of the Doctor is also recalling Clara as she was then. Back with Eleven, post Time Stream but pre Danny, before her struggles in Series 8, before the oh-so-confident Clara that she has became. I remember her seeming so much younger, more innocent. I think it’s kudos to Jenna Coleman that her portrayal has gained so much depth and maturity, as Clara herself must have done through all those experiences.

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@purofilion  @janetteb    Moved here from the other thread because Puro is right, this is pub chat!

except Algebra -that I adore. For some mad reason. Also, trig, that was fun too -followed a precise formula, no deviations so I could do it. But the stuff with “there’s  train following another at 105 miles an hour with 67 passengers consuming 80 kilos of food, what is the…..” My brain melts then, I’m afraid.

Omg, yes. I can remember taking exams in my grade twelve math course, where I would consistently score 50 percent, because I could ace the equation balancing and lovely parabolas and so on, but those “problems from real life” questions would leave me staring at the page. My poor, kind teacher spent much time showing me how to do them, but of course, every question is different. I love yours, by the way, are we trying to figure out how long it takes them to eat the food? Doesn’t that depend on the food? And who is on the train?  🙂

I used to have both the “unprepared for the gig” dreams and the “exam in a class I forgot to attend all term” dreams. Not so much, these days, but the boy is starting to have them now! Apparently, some fears are universal (aside from Zygons).

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@purofilion    Nicely said. I have been embarrassed to admit that I didn’t catch the significance of the Zygon symbol, because I don’t get most of my news in a visual way (i.e. TV or video) and had never seen the Islamic State flag. I have now looked it up, and of course, the connection is instant and obvious. Obviously, this was deliberate, along with the references to splinter groups and so on, to draw an obvious connection for young people watching. Because I really doubt that an episode of DW who is going to change most adult minds about these issues. But our kids, whose viewpoints are so heavily influenced by peer mentality and information of dubious exactitude, could be made to think twice about some of what they are hearing when shown a parable of this sort.

It’s great that your son made that connection, and in a pretty sophisticated way, because of course, the question is, who shapes the narrative that defines people as good or evil? UNIT is ready to go to war because for them, the narrative is one of invasion. The Doctor sees a different story, of a disaffected minority trying to stir up trouble. I hope that, next week, we will hear more from Osgood, because as the hybrid, her perception is unique (at least, in the Zygon context!). This directly recalls the Doctor’s viewpoint in The Hungry Earth (I think it was) where he was seeing the Silurians as beings with a valid point of view, who could and should be parleyed with, not fought.

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@mersey   I grew up during the seventies, and in those days, serious and divisive issues were addressed in television comedy all the time. MASH was one well-known example of these, as were the excellent Norman Lear programs such as All In the Family. So this doesn’t seem in any way inappropriate to me!

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Wow. Just got through two pages of comments, and so much to think about and talk about!

@phaseshift   Yes, you called it didn’t you, in the pub?  🙂  And good point about the Big Finish Zygon stories, I had forgotten that!

@bluesqueakpip    Well, I can’t say that I spotted the switch, but I did think that conversation about middle age and the end of the world was a little off. So when we saw Clara in the pod thing, I thought, “Oh, okay, I get it.”

@sirclockface   Yes! I too laughed at “We know who you are.” I also liked his comment about not wanting to be President, but enjoying the plane! And I agree it was a nice use of music this time, with the Doctor’s choice of guitar tune.

Several people have referred to Zygon Kate from Day of the Doctor. As far as I am aware, we don’t know if that Zygon retained its “Kate” form after that episode. It could well have gone back to Zygon form and eventually duplicated someone else. No mention has ever been made of there being two Kates. Of course, there may be now!  🙂

@ichabod   My South Asian cooking would not be what it is without the admittedly pricey but higher quality Turmezistanian turmeric! No cheap knock offs in my spice cupboard!

@soundworld    Yes, you bring up a good point, that hybridization can be seen as just another form of evolution.

@purofilion     Puro, really, all the bagels? Some just aren’t worth having. But well done, you! And I agree that DW definitely has been needing more children in bags scenes.  🙂

 

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That was great. Depending on how the second half rolls, I think this will definitely come to be considered a modern classic. I liked the pace of the build-up, and the splitting up of the Doctor, Clara, and Kate. And then suddenly momentum picked up and it was over before I knew it!

It was a pretty unsubtle commentary on our times, a bit like being hit over the head with a large, metaphor-shaped hammer. I didn’t mind it, though, as even without the metaphor, the story had lots to offer.

I found the scene outside the church in the fake “Stan” very disturbing. I suspect that would have been an upsetting scenario for the little kids. Also, the creepy elevators gave me a bit of a turn, as it reflected a nightmare I used to have as a kid. Lots of psychological scariness, I wonder if they knew that it would air on Halloween?

Most of all, I gave a cheer when they acknowledged the old Zygon rule, because I had been assuming all along that it had to be the human Osgood, because of that. But was Osgood telling the truth that the Zygon duplicates no longer needed to keep their human originals alive?

More hybrids!  Even the Doctor has spotted the arc at this point.  🙂

Nice cliffhanger. Greatly looking forward to next week.

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Some useful hints on how to enjoy that leftover Halloween candy:

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@bluesqueakpip      Agreed. I too was expecting to hear Romana mentioned. I like the idea that that opening title (which has engendered some disagreement as to who is being referenced) might actually be in itself a foreshadowing of the end of the series!

 

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@phaseshift     Well said!

I raise a glass of seasonal beer to you.   🙂

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@denvaldron     @bluesqueakpip

Both are great explanations. This also makes more clear the problems that the Doctor had in The Angels Take Manhattan, where, in reading the book from the future, the Doctor was turning things into fixed points, because if he knew they would happen, he couldn’t prevent them happening.

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@purofilion   Oh, I meant to respond to this and it got lost in the shuffle. I absolutely remember Northern Exposure with massive fondness, it’s exactly the kind of quirky show that I love. If “Chris in the Morning” had been an option on my radio, I would have listened every day.  ☺  Mr. Arbutus used to complain about the show, having spent his high school years in Alaska, because “the trees were wrong”.

@ichabod   Au contraire, in Canada, we think your Republican primary is hilarious. My son even told his American friends that he “brought popcorn” (he also apparently supports Bernie Sanders, but that’s another story!).

@fatmaninabox   Great job on the pumpkins!

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@countscarlioni     Well, I agree with her. I don’t want Clara to die, either. I feel she’s earned a better end to her story. But I also hope that her exit is worthy of the road she’s travelled to get there!

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@ichabod   Well, that’s a point. But if they do go in that direction, I hope we see something new in the treatment of it, as we have just spent an entire series on the question. Possibly there are other existential questions the Doctor might be driven to look at?

@countscarlioni    It wasn’t so much the idea of Clara dying, but of dying in that way: at the hands of the Doctor, her dearest friend, and the one that she, and we, always trust. Danny’s death was presented in the first instance as a happenstance of life, tragic but commonplace, and in the second instance, as absolution and atonement. Either of these is easier to accept than the Greek tragedy that would be Clara’s death at the hands of the Doctor. That was what made that scene at the end of The Witch’s Familiar so horrifying: Clara, trapped inside the disguise of the Dalek, in enemy uniform so to speak, unable to communicate in a clear way, while she listened to Missy urging the Doctor to kill her. That was also where we were firmly, once and for all, shown where Missy/Master stands on the good/evil spectrum– way, way over on the evil side!

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@countscarlioni   Oh, that’s dark. We’ve even had it foreshadowed by Clara in the Dalek casing. But I can’t really believe that the show, still being a family show after all, would go all the way down that path?

@purofilion  @ichabod   I’m not so sure that “Am I a good man?” is really an issue here. While Ichi is right and we will probably always be grappling with it by our own standards, I’m pretty sure that the Doctor himself has moved on. I think that in his view, he is neither a good nor a bad man, and that the question itself is irrelevant. He does what is right by his own standards, or tries to. Goodness has nothing to do with it!  🙂

@mudlark and others    I’m inclined to agree that the use of “cocktail” is strongly suggestive that Ashildr has either travelled in time or been exposed to someone who has! Not only was it an anachronism, but it seems to have been a very deliberate one. Therefore probably a clue.

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@ichabod   Does the TARDIS still not like Clara, or was that resolved after Name of the Doctor? And if the TARDIS still doesn’t like her, maybe it is connected to what Sexy knows/perceives/predicts about her fate and the Doctor’s possible attempts to avoid it? She doesn’t like him crossing his timeline, maybe preventing Clara’s death would entail something even worse?

@brewski   I have been in Heaven in London.   Was Missy there?

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Some great music up here as always! Thanks to all for the mainstream, the quirky, the familiar, and the new!

@thekrynoidman     If you’d played me that Drake Bell song without the video and told me it was recorded in around 1979, I would have believed you. A very classic pop sound.

Here’s my favourite song today!

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@PlainOldDave    Okay, I hadn’t seen the “Doctor Who as motorcycle” metaphor before. As Eleven would have said, “That’s new!”   🙂

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