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@bluesqueakpip, @missrori

Or they could go all 4th wall, and he could play every small child hiding behind the sofa…

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Wasn’t quite sure which thread to post this on, but just rewatched “Empress of Mars” and it confirmed that, for me, this was the most enjoyable episode of S11. Not the most spectacular, or the most important, but, for me, the most enjoyable. I also think it was the most successful Gatiss-penned story that he did for Who.

And it was pure Gatiss. There was the Victorian setting (well, you know what I mean); there was the allusion to HG Wells, and Kipling, and other Victorian novelists that I am not remembering at the moment; there were the elements of self-sacrifice, of cowardice and heroism, and the underlying romanticism of it all. Yes, it’s true, I loved it!

And, finally, the return of Alpha Centauri! I mean, how wonderful was that?

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@miapatrick
Congratulations!

Absolutely brilliant.

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Been travelling, so have not read the million posts that have come in, and Therefore I am absolutely sure that what I am about to say has been well discussed already.

But, since Sydney Newman argued back in 1986 that the Doctor should be a woman in the future:
https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/07/17/sydney-newman-co-creator-doctor-told-bbc-cast-woman-1986/
it is awfully hard (ie, impossible) to take seriously the moaners (ie, sexist pillocks) who think that this change is all about political correctness and is not “true” to the original show (that was created by the same man who said that the Doctor should be changed into a woman).

OK, that’s it! I am not engaging in this “defence” that needs no defence any more!

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Been scanning the comments, and wondering…why is this still an issue?

It’s happened. It’s exciting. it’s  new phase of Who.

Why aren’t we coming up with bonkers theories about S11?

So. Maybe we could move off this thread and move onto a thread about the possible directions for S11.

Just a suggestion.

 

 

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The more I think about this change, the more I like it.

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this, and who knows whether CC will use use any characters from the recent past, but I think it would be fascinating to see the reaction and dynamics of Madam Vastra and Jenny to an attractive female Doctor…

Strax, of course, would be completely clueless.

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Agree with @nick. As a choice it seems simultaneously revolutionary and conventional, if that makes sense. I only know Jodie Whittaker from Broadchurch, and there weren’t too many many laughs in that one. But looking forward immensely to a whole new chapter in Who.

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@jimthefish

Ha! Brilliant.

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@devilishrobby
That was Laurence Fox. Who was married to Billie Piper. Come to think of it, are there any actors in Britain who have not either been in Doctor Who or are related to someone who has?

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Hmm…there seems to be a strange silence on the board. As if people are holding their breath for tomorrow.

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And if the allusion to trigonometry in the announcement is intentional, then we may be looking forward to many complicated diagrams from @bluesqueakpip during S11!

Actually, the trigonometry allusion has instilled in me more confidence in the prospect of a Chibnall Who. Not entirely sure why. Perhaps it is because it alludes to maps and puzzles. Perhaps, picking up on the Tom Paine quote, because it implies a belief in science and rationality.

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@cathannabel
Have a great double celebration on Sunday! Ruby…Wow. The announcement of the 13th pales in comparison.

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Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason:

The scientific principles that man employs to obtain the foreknowledge of an eclipse, or of any thing else relating to the motion of the heavenly bodies, are contained chiefly in that part of science that is called trigonometry, or the properties of a triangle, which, when applied to the study of the heavenly bodies, is called astronomy; when applied to direct the course of a ship on the ocean, it is called navigation; when applied to the construction of figures drawn by a ruler and compass, it is called geometry; when applied to the construction of plans of edifices, it is called architecture; when applied to the measurement of any portion of the surface of the earth, it is called land-surveying. In fine, it is the soul of science. It is an eternal truth: it contains the mathematical demonstration of which man speaks, and the extent of its uses are unknown.

 

I do think we are in for a search in S11 (coffee notwithstanding).

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And…just running with my post above…in the announcement video the key in the trig disappears at the end. Are we to imply that the juxtaposition of the trig and the disappearing key means that we should expect a search to figure in S11?

Or have I just had too much coffee?

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Damn! Inadvertently posted on Spoilers page instead of here. Apologies for cross posting.

Just rewatched the announcement (of the announcement). The figure 13 appears all over the world. Remind you of anything? Say…the number 3 appearing all over the world? And who wrote “The Power of Three”? One Chris Chibnall. And in the trig is a key. The key to the Tardis? Well, yes, but perhaps also (and I am thinking of the comments made about a potential series-length story) a…Key to Time?

So, could the little announcement video be hinting at something more than simply the announcement of the 13th Doctor?

 

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Just rewatched the announcement (of the announcement). The figure 13 appears all over the world. Remind you of anything? Say…the number 3 appearing all over the world? And who wrote “The Power of Three”? One Chris Chibnall. And in the trig is a key. The key to the Tardis? Well, yes, but perhaps also (and I am thinking of the comments made about a potential series-length story) a…Key to Time?

So, could the little announcement video be hinting at something more than simply the announcement of the 13th Doctor?

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@jimthefish
The upside of it being Theresa May is she would probably do less damage as a fictional character than as a real person. And since there is always the possibility of a “floppy haired white male” as the Doctor it could also be hinting at Boris Johnson. Also a prospect to be feared.

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Since the announcement comes directly after Wimbledon, could it be someone who looks really smart in tennis whites?

If so, I am pretty certain it is not me.

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OK, only 2 more days to come up with suitably bonkers theories!

Hullo, I see above that @wolfweed has already started.

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@jimthefish

But in the end I suspect that SM, as always, will do something playful with regeneration that we haven’t thought of yet.

Yes. Absolutely.

That is one of the many reasons why I will miss him.

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@arbutus

Yes! I remember that song from my youth. What a great song!

As a fellow resident of British Columbia I entirely support your appeal for people to donate to the Canadian Red Cross. What is happening out here is terrible and needs support.

Now back to rewatch Martha and the Vandellas!

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@craig, @nick

You know what the say when two people are thinking the same thing at the same time…

It’s just that I thought I should let you know that I am spoken for…

Ahem…

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@craig, @nick

Bizarre. We are all thinking the same thing at the same time. I did not see your messages as I was typing mine.

So yes, perhaps it could work.

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Since we are up for a multiple Doctor story at Christmas, it raises the prospect that the Capaldi Doctor could meet, or at least see–before regeneration–not only his immediate successor, but a number of future Doctors. After all, previous multiple Doctor stories are based on that premise that it is possible for a Doctor to see and interact with, a future Doctor.

However, in previous multiple Doctor stories, there tends to be an assumption that the “current” Doctor is seeing one of his past iterations. But it is just as easy to shift the focus and tell the story of the past Doctor seeing a Doctor who he (the past Doctor) has not yet become.

Up till now, if a “current” Doctor interacts with another Doctor, it is from his past, and he (the current Doctor) has never been aware of his future version before regeneration. So past Doctors who appear in a multiple Doctor  story only do it after they have left the show.  But why couldn’t the PC Doctor–before he regenerates– interact with, or at least be aware of, a Doctor from his future?

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Arghh, I meant to say BG Who above, of course.

And while revelling in the silliness of BG Who it was, in its own way, as affectionate for the show as Gatiss’s “A Matter of Space and Time” was.

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Always lots of fun. As @winston says, great jokes about AG Who such as the endless gravel quarries, and the constant promise to “explain later”. What I found particularly fascinating though were the bits which would turn up in recent Moffat stories. When Julia Sawalha pleads for the life of the Hugh Grant Doctor it sounds amazingly similar to Clara pleading for the Doctor’s life before Matt Smith regenerates. And the jokes about chairs on a Dalek ship and the whole joke about sewers both turn up in the episode with PC and Davros. Even the final flirtation between Joanna Lumley’s Doctor and the Master had it echo in the flirtation between Missy and the Master.

The multiple regenerations were brilliant. Perhaps my favourite was Jim Broadbent’s shy Doctor.

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@jimthefish

Excellent Whoodle!

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@serahni
Let me join your small but honourable group. I found the whole Rose/Ten dynamic horribly cringeworthy. Indeed, I felt it brought out the worst of both characters, and was one of the reasons I skipped a lot of episodes during those years. I found her selfish and self-indulgent character intensely annoying. I think Moffat was very astute in bringing back Billie Piper in the 50th as Bad Wolf, and not as Rose. The Bill/Twelve dynamic worked so much better (partly because of the age difference, partly because of the sexuality of Bill, and partly because Moffat chose to make her neither “the impossible girl” as with Clara or “all about her”, as with Amy. Bill by contrast was refreshingly real.

I am hoping very much that the success of the Bill/Twelve dynamic means that Chibnall does not revert to a romantic subtext between Doctor and companion next year.

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@nerys
Your last paragraph–I agree.

I just finished watching the episode again, and I know that others have suggested something changes hands, but I am more of the view that the holding of hands is just that. And its importance is precisely that–the emotional significance that the holding of hands signifies.

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@nick, @janetteb
Re:the final dialogue between Bill and the Doctor, I think this is one of the rare occasions that I would suggest we don’t need to see hidden meanings beyond what we hear. I think it simply is an oblique way of Bill letting the Doctor know that she cared for/loved him. With other companions the emotional feelings for the Doctor are clearer and at the point of loss, more raw. But with Bill, it has been different, partly because of her sexuality. So I think she is, in a hesitating, almost embarrassed sort of way, making it clear to the Doctor that she too, cares for him and that she wants him to be aware of that.

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Thinking more about the idea that there might be two regenerations in the Christmas special–the 12th into the 13th and the 1st into the 2nd (neither “wants to go” but each convinces the other that they have to). OK, now since the 1st is to be played by David Bradley from “A Matter of Space and Time” then the 2nd Doctor could conceivably be played by Reece Shearsmith, who played the 2nd Doctor in the same show. Now, if indeed there are two regenerations, what if the 13th Doctor (because of the bonding that take place between 1 and 12 in the Christmas special), turns out to be…Reece Shearsmith…?

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@brewski
That is a neat theory! I suspect it may be the other way around (with the 1st Doctor in the role of Clarence the angel) but there is a certain appeal to your idea.

Your idea also made me wonder if the “difference” with this regeneration, that Moffat has been emphasizing, is that it involves 2 regenerations, with the 12th regenerating into the 13th and the 1st regenerating into the 2nd.

It would certainly reinforce the point about “there will always be Doctor Who” (also emphasized by Moffat) and it would be a brilliant bridge between BG Who and Chibnall Who.

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@jimthefish, @bluesqueakpip, @nick,

I should have added that you have all made excellent points, as always. My irritation is with the Mail, the Sun, and their ilk. And perhaps the BBC as well.

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@jimthefish, @bluesqueakpip, @nick

I do wish the BBC would just make an announcement and put everybody out of their misery. To be honest, I find the whole speculation game, which seems, in the main, to be inflicted on us by newspapers of such lofty journalistic standards as the Mail and the Sun (god help us) really quite tedious.

There. Got that off my chest. Now I will try and go back to being whimsical and flippant…

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From Who to Sherlock

Was just watching the Master in Terror of the Autons (as one does), and it struck me that the scene with the Time Lord who arrives to warn the Doctor of the arrival of the Master was strikingly similar to the first meeting of Mycroft and Watson in A Study in Pink:

The scene in Sherlock opens with a long shot of Mycroft:

The rest of the scene plays out with very much the same tone as in Who:

Did Gatiss consciously model Mycroft on that Time Lord? I suspect he did.

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@nick
I agree. I think the start of the regeneration goes back earlier. Knowing Moffat, he has probably planted the origins of the regeneration back in The Pilot (a re-watch needed) or conceivably, even earlier. I remember thinking, in Eaters of the Light, that his desire to sacrifice himself was not only reckless, but, as Bill pointed out, inappropriate. It was as if he was avoiding something. That something may well be his regeneration that he knew was coming. It would also tie into his underlying concern with wondering if he is a good man. This is a Doctor who wants to die rather than regenerate. I imagine this is what the 1st Doctor will help him resolve when we get to It’s a Wonderful Life…I mean, the Christmas special…

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@wolfweed

Official site extra material geo-locked for all beyond the UK. Damn…

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@wolfweed
No, I haven’t watched it yet. Thanks for pointing it out.

One of the greatest films of the 20th century, in my humble opinion.

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@nerys
I confess that I didn’t make that connection to Hazran. What did spring to mind when I watched the episode was the connection with role played by Lillian Gish as the woman who protects her orphan charges against Robert Mitchum’s deranged Preacher in the fabulous “”Night of the Hunter”:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0048424/mediaviewer/rm1069923072

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Something else I loved was the point where The Master is applying eyeliner. It captures his narcissism brilliantly.

And..this is a real stretch…there is a link with Anthony Ainley’s Master. He played the fiancee of Lord Peter Wimsey’s sister who comes to a sticky end (the fiancée, that is) in the first Ian Carmichael TV version of the Wimsey novels. In the first story, as the fiancee, he is similarly narcissistic as, at one point in the story, he stares into the mirror as he applies make-up. It is a great TV show, and I recommend it heartily.

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@wolfweed
Nothing can ruin beautiful melancholy if you are determined to believe in it, and by golly, I am.

@bluesqueakpip. Great comment. I also wonder if it is a way of allowing Chibnall the freedom to do what he likes with a new Doctor, unencumbered by the history of the 13. In other words, perhaps, in the Christmas special, the Doctor will come to accept moving on by realizing that the shared history of all the Doctors from Hartnell to him will conclude with him and his regeneration will lead to a “new” Doctor where there are no more call-backs to the past. I tend to think Moffat might find that appealing, as it would mean that with his (Moffat’s) departure the door closes on the version and history of the Doctor that began with Hartnell.

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Well, I absolutely loved that! Yes, it could have something to do with the fact that I am a hopeless romantic, and it delivered on that level brilliantly.

Needless to say, all my theories were proved totally wrong, but hey, that’s what we are here for. And yet, the teardrop at the end that gives him life. I would like to think it harked back to the end of “A Matter of Life and Death”.

The interaction between Missy and the Master, between Missy and the Doctor, between the Master and the only person he was capable of interacting with (ie, himself) were all stunning. Missy’s end, where she is true to the Doctor, but without him ever knowing was…well, it just was.

And it really does look like we are in for a version of “It’s a Wonderful Life” at Christmas.

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@wolfweed

The new Doctor will be invisible & silent, so as not to offend anyone…

Now that was brilliant!

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@craig

Well, what access to the Qantas Club Lounge implied was that you were about to fly (in Business class) to some interesting part of the globe, and your employer was paying for it! The cellar alone is poor compensation, believe me. But, I am now hanging out on an island full of jazz clubs and professional baristas, so there is not much to complain about.

I am sure your analogy about what happens to friends over time is an apposite one,and I certainly wouldn’t feel that it was because you hadn’t maintained the site. I also wonder if the early days need to be understood in the context of where we had come from. The site was established as a haven from the toxic wasteland elsewhere on the web, and it was both exciting and novel to be part of a like-minded community. But one cannot maintain novelty indefinitely. Having said that, I still find it the most welcoming and interesting place on the web.

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@jimthefish
You’re right–it is a stylish raspberry beret!

It is up there on a par with @chickenelly‘s bow tie and pipe. Talking of which, where is the old crowd? Have they drifted away because of the show or, heaven forbid, because of us? Are our musings less witty and incandescently brilliant than they used to be? Mine, almost certainly. (I blame it on my loss of access to the Qantas Club Lounge.)

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@nick
I agree with you. I think it is premature to assume the worst. And if CC’s stories become more adventure/mystery based with a more “fun” Doctor, I see that as no bad thing. As much I love Moffat’s writing, I really think there have been way too much emphasis on death and dying in the last thee years. And the self-doubt of the Doctor, and the angst over the Time War and his past has also started to pall (for me, anyway).

There is, I assume, about 9 months before we see the new Doctor in a CC story. It would be a real pity if we psyched ourselves into a mood of foreboding during those nine months.

It looks like there will be more death coming on Saturday, and emotional and tearful goodbyes at Christmas, but, maybe, fun and adventure in 2018. I say, let’s embrace that prospect.

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@nick
Hmmm…

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@wolfweed

You’re not dropping a hint, are you…?

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@jimthefish
After scouring the web, I actually think it does

http://www.thedoctorwhosite.co.uk/tardis/exterior/1963-tardis/

Albeit from what you can make out from a grainy photo of two models…

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@jimthefish
Ah, well, in that case anything is possible.

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