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29 June 2017 at 19:19 #59966
@nick
If the regeneration starts…and stops (that is, postponed) in The Doctor Falls, it might allow a Christmas special where the actual full regeneration is in the closing moments when we see the face of the new Doctor. That way, it does not need any Chibnall input into the script.29 June 2017 at 17:58 #59956@wolfweed
Is the source reliable?29 June 2017 at 05:51 #59918Oh, forgot!
Sixth point: I suspect that Missy actually is aware of who Razor is and is not letting on (why? See fourth point)
Seventh point: @thane15. OK, talking to you as if you were a four year-old…”Because Mummy says so.”
29 June 2017 at 05:35 #59916Just re-watched the episode in light of my (maybe bonkers, maybe serious) theory. Well, no, not “theory”, as such, more of an idea.
First thought: by golly, my idea might actually work!
Second thought: while we all think about the story, we have not commented on John Simm’s performance as Mr Razor–it is brilliant! And he really deserves accolades.
Third thought: the point at which it all goes wiggy for Bill (that is, partially converted Bill) is when she asks Razor when are the Doctor, Missy and Nardole likely to arrive. This is the point when Razor sets in process the full conversion of Bill. Why then? Not sure.
Fourth thought: I still believe Missy knows what the Doctor knows (ie, that the Doctor has a rescue plan based on the time speed of each end of the ship) and therefore I think Missy will turn out to be on the side of the angels (not that it necessarily will work out well for Missy).
Fifth point: I think that the Hospital is an accurate representation of Jeremy Hunt’s vision of the NHS.
28 June 2017 at 21:47 #59898@nick
You are being awfully literal! I’m not sure you have taken on board my reason for including the Monty Python clip. And if my theory does turn out to be correct, as you say,a good story is a good story and that’s all that matters at the end of the day.
28 June 2017 at 21:26 #59894To continue…If they are losing time on floor zero, then it could potentially reach a point before Bill is shot.
Now, what if the Doctor was aware that they were losing time on floor zero, and when he implants a psychic message into Bill to “wait for me”, it is all part of his plan to rescue her. Because he needs her to wait long enough for floor zero to get to the point before she is shot, and that means she has to wait for years at the other end of the ship. It also means that he has to wait on floor zero until the timing is right. If so, he could possibly then “re-set” Bill, rather than re-setting time. And if all this is the case, my money would be on the other Time Lord in the room (Missy) also being aware of what the Doctor was doing. I owe all this to the method of deductive reasoning articulated by Sir Bedevere:
28 June 2017 at 20:49 #59891So time is running backwards on floor zero. Sooo…does this mean that it could reach a point before Bill is shot? If so…
27 June 2017 at 23:47 #59819If the location shot is WWI, and if the location photo from sometime back was WWII, then it might involve the Doctor (or Doctors) visiting earth during times of great peril, which could lead them to…”The Dalek Invasion of Earth”, which was where the Doctor famously made a promise that he has not yet kept:
27 June 2017 at 23:14 #59815In fact, the more you think about it, it does raise the prospect of where it might be leading to…
And I am thinking of my all-time favourite Who story….
If so, that would be too awesome for words.
27 June 2017 at 23:07 #59813Indeed. Very interesting.
27 June 2017 at 23:06 #59812Hmm…I have just thought of a cunning plan…
27 June 2017 at 22:56 #59809Alternatively, I suppose we could ask @craig to put up a new thread called “Complete and Utter Ruiners: You Have Been Warned”
27 June 2017 at 22:47 #59807Oh, come on. The thread is called “Spoilers” after all. People enter at their own risk. Why? Because they want to see the spoilers.
27 June 2017 at 20:08 #59801(great name, btw!)
Yes, I can see your point. I suppose part of my assumption is based on the interviews with Pearl Mackie and SM, where they come across as well, simultaneously coy and knowing.
As you say, we’ll see.
27 June 2017 at 16:32 #59785@jimthefish
Well, yes, I suppose so, but SM does tend to play fast and loose with the selective memory of humanity. On the one hand we have the Doctor telling Bill in previous episodes that there is no limit to humanity’s ability to collectively forget. If we go back to Amy, the Doctor is surprised that she has no memory of Daleks in London. And now, Bill presumably has a memory of Harold Saxon.But I do agree about the Master having form when it comes to disguises, which probably lies behind my thoughts on the Doctor regenerating in the snow.
27 June 2017 at 15:55 #59780Simulation
I would agree with @pedant on this. While possible, it might drain away the emotional wallop of the episode, such as the Bill’s tear at the end. On the other hand, the more you think about aspects of the episode, the more questions are raised. Such as the Simm Master’s need for a disguise. Bill is unaware of him, so is it just to surprise the audience? Well, yes, it does that, but does it have a narrative logic for him to be disguised? And while the city that houses the patients has a real nightmarish quality (do you remember the movie “Dark City”?) it does raise the question of whether it really is a nightmare. So I can see where the simulation idea is coming from, but, as @pedant points out, it could too easily result in a cop out.
As for the Doctor resisting regeneration in the snow, still not convinced it is the Doctor. Still, only four more days of guessing!
27 June 2017 at 02:45 #5975126 June 2017 at 23:03 #59740Just re-watched the pre-opening titles sequence. Others have commented on the state of the Doctor’s hair (indeed, it seems more like a wig than his own hair). The other peculiarity is the state of his clothes. They are worn and fraying, as if he has been trapped somewhere for a very long time. But if so, it appears he had a razor with him. Razor…hmm.
26 June 2017 at 00:38 #59687If you watch the full trailer, posted by @wolfweed at #59543, the first words: “We’re not going to get out of this one, are we?” seem to be spoken by Bill, and not by a Cyberman Bill. The final words are spoken by the Doctor: “Stand with me. It’s all I’ve ever wanted…” as Missy looks into his eyes.
It seems to hint that Bill will be de-cybermanized and that if anyone dies who the Doctor would “gift” his new appearance to, it is Missy.
Well, I hope so, on both counts, anyway.
26 June 2017 at 00:32 #59686I’m still hoping for a hidden in plain sight, totally gobsmacking surprise regeneration. Maybe it’s not too late for it still be Pearl — the Doctor’s tribute to the girl he couldn’t save? A future reproach, not unlike having to wear Caecilius’s face this time around?
I am hoping for something very similar, but with Michelle Gomez. For an explanation of why that might actually happen, head on over to the ‘Spoilers’ page.
25 June 2017 at 21:44 #59671A few more thoughts on Andrew Marvell and his relevance to understanding the episode.
A few lines from the poem “To His Coy Mistress”, containing the lines of the episode title “World Enough and Time”, are spoken by David Niven as the doomed WWII pilot as his plane is engulfed in flames in one of the greatest British movies ever made, “A Matter of Life and Death”:
‘“But at my back I always hear / Time’s winged chariot hurrying near. / And yonder all before us lie / Deserts of vast eternity.” Andy Marvell – What a marvel!’
Now, as anyone who has seen the movie knows, in the movie David Niven’s character seemingly escapes certain death, but…up in heaven where they recognise that he should have died, there is a debate as to whether he should be allowed to live or not.
There is a striking similarity between the the way the movie cuts between heaven and earth and…the Nethersphere (aka the Promised Land, aka Heaven), first seen in “Deep Breath”, and the focus of “Dark Water” and “Death in Heaven”. And remember, our first introduction to Missy (although we didn’t know her by that name then) was in the Nethersphere in “Death in Heaven” where we are first introduced to the Capaldi Doctor, and when she reveals her true identity in the final two-parter of S8 it is leading an army of Cybermen,
OK, now cut to “World Enough and Time”. It strikes me that the dark, nightmarish world at the end of the spaceship where they are converting humanity into the first iteration of the Cybermen is like a dark, inverted version of the Nethersphere. I think it is clear that the long arc that Moffat has given us for the Capaldi years is really Missy/Master-centred. It starts in Capadli’s first series, with a version of Heaven, controlled by Missy and utilising her army of Cybermen, and it is concluding with a version of Hell, where the Master is creating his army of Cybermen.
Now, back to the link with “A Matter of Life and Death”. The final image we are given in “World Enough and Time” is of Bill’s teardrop. In “A Matter of Life and Death” the heavenly court decides to allow the David Niven character to live, and the deciding factor is the teardrop that drops onto a rose from the girl who loves him.
25 June 2017 at 18:54 #59658Had we but world enough, and time,
This coyness, Lady, were no crime
We would sit down and think which way
To walk and pass our long love’s day.
Thou by the Indian Ganges’ side
Shouldst rubies find: I by the tide
Of Humber would complain. I would
Love you ten years before the Flood,
And you should, if you please, refuse
Till the conversion of the Jews.
My vegetable love should grow
Vaster than empires, and more slow;
A hundred years should go to praise
Thine eyes and on thy forehead gaze;
Two hundred to adore each breast,
But thirty thousand to the rest;
An age at least to every part,
And the last age should show your heart.
For, Lady, you deserve this state,
Nor would I love at lower rate.But at my back I always hear
Time’s wingèd chariot hurrying near;
And yonder all before us lie
Deserts of vast eternity.
Thy beauty shall no more be found,
Nor, in thy marble vault, shall sound
My echoing song; then worms shall try
That long preserved virginity,
And your quaint honour turn to dust,
And into ashes all my lust:
The grave’s a fine and private place,
But none, I think, do there embrace.Now therefore, while the youthful hue
Sits on thy skin like morning dew,
And while thy willing soul transpires
At every pore with instant fires,
Now let us sport us while we may,
And now, like amorous birds of prey,
Rather at once our time devour
Than languish in his slow-chapped power.
Let us roll all our strength and all
Our sweetness up into one ball,
And tear our pleasures with rough strife
Through the iron gates of life:
Thus, though we cannot make our sun
Stand still, yet we will make him run.25 June 2017 at 18:51 #59657Well, finally saw it, and…I actually am finding it a bit difficult to comment on, as it was, in essence, all exposition in preparation for next week.
I think the thing I liked about it the most was the way it referenced, and gave expression to, the Andrew Marvell poem “To His Coy Mistress”. Because, when you think about it, that is what it was all about; as is made explicit when The Doctor and Bill sit on the university roof top and he tells Bill about his “crush” on Missy/The Master from the very first day at the Academy.
24 June 2017 at 04:02 #59519@winston
I’m with you. Whatever happens, I hope that, particularly for Bill, there is a happy ending which entails Heather…without the Pope bursting in.Mind you, this coming episode does sound a bit fraught. But like you, I want to say goodbye to the Moffat years with a real upbeat feeling.
Hmm…I just read over that, and it does sound a bit wet.
OK, I want an ending with death on the stage of Shakespearean proportions.
Hmm…now that I look at that last sentence, I wonder.
Perhaps I want an ending more like Shakespeare and less like John Webster…
23 June 2017 at 23:48 #59512My money is on Peter Capaldi and Michelle Gomez switching.
That is a great idea! I have long been hoping that Michelle Gomez would become the Doctor (perhaps because The Doctor does not save her, and his parting gift is to give the new Doctor her appearance in memory of their friendship) but your idea of an actual switch is inspired! Whatever they actually do, I cannot imagine it could be better than that.
22 June 2017 at 01:07 #59462I think it was @jimthefish who said that Bill either dying or being turned into a Cyberperson, or both, seems a bit too much like Danny Pink. Unless, of course, the Doctor decides it’s not going to happen twice on his watch and finds a way to reverse it.
(Bonkers thought: We know there are going to be current versions of the Cybermen along with the Mondasian versions. We don’t know whose side the modern versions are on. Could Bill be saved by the intervention of…the Danny Pink version of a Cyberman? Who comes back from the Nethersphere somehow? Now that would be an unexpected cameo.)
As for Missy and the Master being in the same room, I cannot think of any resolution except one that turns out very bad for Missy. It may well be that it plays on the irony of Missy turning “guid” means that she loses her ability to outwit the Master. Which would mean that the Doctor would feel responsible for losing his friend–ie, the very act of recovering his friend as his friend leads to him losing his friend.
21 June 2017 at 01:06 #59408No teasing…
20 June 2017 at 21:58 #59392My clip from the Mel Brooks version above was not entirely (although mostly) meant to be frivolous. Look at who Moffat and Gatiss are. Both have a track record in writing comedy. I would be very surprised indeed if their approach to Dracula was comedy-free. Gattis loves MR James and Victorian popular literature, and so there is an obvious connection to Dracula. He also likes referencing or re-imagining popular culture, and for this reason I would expect that their take on Dracula would owe as much to the movies as it would to Bram Stoker. Moffat finds it hard to write anything that is entirely free of erotically-charged situations and characters (“Coupling”, Irene Adler, River Song) and you can instantly see the appeal of Dracula to Moffat on that level.
So, drawing all this together I would expect something not a million miles away from Sherlock, that contains thrills, chills, narrative twists, sex and humour, along with call-outs to past popular culture versions of the Dracula story.
20 June 2017 at 19:25 #59375It would be interesting to know which Dracula they admire the most
Well, I am hoping it might be the Mel Brooks/Leslie Nielsen version
20 June 2017 at 18:01 #59366For all those worried about Bill being turned into a Cyberperson, keep in mind the Star Trek Next Generation two-parter where Picard was turned into a Borg…temporarily.
20 June 2017 at 16:52 #59361Not so much Dr Who News, as post-Dr Who News.
It would seem that Moffat and Gatiss are teaming up for a new take on Dracula.
19 June 2017 at 03:53 #59277@nick, yes, I read about this. Coming so soon after Grenfell Tower does not seem like a coincidence. If there was one thing that came across in the coverage of Grenfell Tower it was that, when it came to the residents, race didn’t matter, religion didn’t matter, they all came together as…Londoners. There was this sense, through what I read and what I watched, that there was this fierce sense of a group of people who suffered together, and who came together, as Londoners, in resilience and anger.
Of course, there are two groups who do not want this picture of humanity being more important than identity to get traction–terrorists and racists. So if Finsbury Park turns out to be an attack born of hate, I am not surprised. Saddened and dispirited, but not surprised.
19 June 2017 at 01:31 #59273Oh, and a third reflection would be about the Doctor offering to sacrifice himself to save humanity felt, this time, a bit gratuitous; almost as if he was doing it to avoid something else. That point came through when Bill had to point out to him that this was not his call, it was something the Picts and the Romans had a right to do. Could this tie into the Doctor’s “fall”?
Indeed, “avoiding something else” is quite clear in this episode. He keeps coming up with excuses to avoid guarding the vault, a responsibility that both Bill and Nardole have to repeatedly remind him of. When Missy turns up at the end, you tend to side with Nardole and understand his outrage. The Doctor is avoiding something…
19 June 2017 at 01:21 #59272The other point I would make about this episode is that the pattern that some have seen in this series of monsters that aren’t really monsters deep down does not seem to apply in this story. The Eaters of the Light are just there to consume everything in their path, it would seem.
19 June 2017 at 00:53 #59271Well, an enjoyable tale, perhaps a bit a bit slight, but with some good moments. What I especially liked about it was that it really did have an old Who feel about it. The whole construction of the story, where the Doctor casually lets Bill go wandering off in 2nd century Scotland by herself while he tries to prove his own theory is something that had a 1st Doctor feel to it. And the resolution where the Doctor is forced to admit he is wrong and has to be rescued from the collapsing cairn by his companions was old Who as well.
@soundworld. I loved your post. Gave me an expanded appreciation of the episode.
17 June 2017 at 00:10 #59160I have been banging on about this for a while (indeed, in one instance in reply to one of your posts). You must pay more attention!
An indicative (if not indeed idiotic) example would be something I said on the Empress of Mars thread at #58927.
16 June 2017 at 23:03 #59155or c) the new Doc has been there all along, hiding in plain sight…
(Oh, well, deep down I have resigned myself to that not happening.)
15 June 2017 at 18:02 #59115As Capaldi’s run is coming to an end, we decided to watch “Deep Breath” again last night. It was interesting for a number of reasons. First, the pace of the episode was actually quite slow in comparison to what it is like now. Second, Capaldi’s first outing as the Doctor has one important characteristic that has stayed with him throughout…self-doubt. Indeed, when you look back at episodes where he is full of swagger and bravado, even they come across as a person who is trying, perhaps too hard, to push the self-doubt away. But the self-doubt has been there throughout. And third, and I think we tend to miss the significance of this, Missy has been there from the beginning. She is introduced from day one of the 12th Doctor’s tenure, as it were. Indeed, one might even say that Missy is part of the 12th Doctor’s identity. She might not have been in every story, but she has been there throughout, and as we are now seeing, is going to be crucial to his regeneration. When we look back on the 12th Doctor, I think that Missy will be seen as increasingly relevant to our understanding of what was distinctive about this Doctor.
15 June 2017 at 04:38 #59100Have been reading about the Grenfell Tower fire with a sinking heart, and, like most, I hope, I am appalled. I just read this:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/14/grenfell-fire-location-reaction-anger
I have great respect for the UK contributors on this site, and ask, therefore, if this captures the situation? Because it reminds me of “I, Daniel Blake”, in the sense of a corporate, bureaucratic mentality that has no respect at all for the people it is supposed to provide for.
Has it really descended to this?
15 June 2017 at 01:06 #5909514 June 2017 at 02:12 #59064I think there is a big difference between one storyline running through a season, and an arc that slowly unfolds or is slowly revealed. Moffat does the latter very well, I think, but this is not what Chibnall and Strong seem to be referring to. They seem to be talking about something closer to Broadchurch. Would that work, not in the context of a murder mystery, but in the context of Doctor Who? Well, looking at previous attempts to do something like that on Who, we have “The Key to Time” and “Trial of a Time Lord”. The former partially worked, in the sense that some of the multi-episode stories were better than others, whereas the latter only serves as a warning against doing anything like that, in my opinion. And “The Key to Times” was, of course, broken into a group of discreet stories of 5 or 6 episodes each, which is not how programming functions anymore.
If you look at attempts to do those sorts of story construction elsewhere on TV, I would single out three examples: Babylon 5, The X-Files, and (the new) Battlestar Galactica. I have a real soft spot for Babylon 5, partially because of the way it married its long sci-fi arc with its referencing of fascist militarism and its discussion of the ethics of rebellion and taking up arms against your own government. But it depended almost entirely on the writing of its creator, J. Michael Straczynski. And his writing fluctuated. With The X Files, it lurched from great to grating, and became the victim of its own success, where the later seasons were a case of diminishing returns. Battlestar Galactica started off brilliantly and the first two and a half seasons kept up the story, which channelled post 9/11 anxieties really effectively, until it, too, ultimately got lost as the story became more mystical and religious.
The story-telling arcs in those shows were, however, all in the context of science fiction, and Who is not sci-fi. It is fantasy, with some sci-fi trimmings. I am not sure we can extrapolate from the examples above to Who. If anything, we should look back to Who itself, and I don’t believe the previous attempts at a series-length story inspire one with confidence.
13 June 2017 at 20:43 #59052I am inclined to agree. Indeed, after reading the RT article and the TV article, I had this vision of S11 opening with the body of Nardole lying in the sand at the base of the Dover cliffs as the Time Lords rope off the area…
11 June 2017 at 22:11 #58936@mudlark
Glad to hear there was a positive outcome. I have always venerated the NHS after a brief episode while on holidays in Scotland some years ago. That was why I was disappointed to hear that Jeremy Hunt was left in charge of its destruction in the recent cabinet non-reshuffle.P.S. You beta blockers sound wonderful!
11 June 2017 at 21:44 #58933@devilishrobby, @bluesqueakpip, @jimthefish
Thanks for that. In light of your information, the reason I ask is this: if it was someone brand new, but uncontentious (eg, young white male with perfect teeth) then presumably they could announce it really early (like Matt Smith’s announcement) without it overshadowing the rest of Capaldi’s run. If it was someone the Daily Mail and their ilk regard as contentious (eg, a person of colour) then the BBC might feel that the media response may well overshadow the rest of Capaldi’s run. In that case, they could announce it between the end of S10 and the Christmas special. Or, a third option might encourage them to keep the lid on it for as long as humanely possible (ie, that, just as Moffat did with Eurus in Sherlock, the person in question is already “hiding in plain sight”).
Well, it is obvious who I would like it to be!
11 June 2017 at 20:43 #58927what’s the deal?
I know I am hoping for a “Michelle Gomez as the new Doctor” scenario, but:
Could it be possible that the Doctor has already (partially) regenerated, and…somehow…they split in two and the newly contrite Missy is really the new Doctor in embryo, as it were? That might explain why the Tardis zipped off to get Missy. Or at least put Nardole in a situation where he had to bring Missy back to Mars. (That is, to save the Doctor before the regeneration is complete.)
Hmm, well, still thinking this one through.
11 June 2017 at 19:53 #58924On the question of the identity of the new Doctor, does anyone recall how close to the end of the previous Doctors’ runs there was a BBC announcement? In other words, in relation to the announcement of Matt Smith and the announcement of Peter Capaldi, are we overdue for an announcement?
11 June 2017 at 19:48 #58923Just transferred this over to “BBC spoilers” as it seemed a more appropriate thread.
11 June 2017 at 16:52 #58918Absolutely loved it! For me, perhaps the best story Gatiss has done on Who. Fabulous call-back to the spirit of BG Who (and HG Wells).
the Doctor is pregnant with Missy’s baby…
Brilliant!
Actually, I think you might be able to interpret that last scene in a way that confirms my hope that the Doctor will regenerate (has regenerated?) in the shape of Missy. I do hope so…
10 June 2017 at 19:54 #58859Just heard about the death of Adam West, which is to say, my Batman, as opposed to the current grim crop of dark, earnest and violent Batmans.
9 June 2017 at 18:38 #58804Just finished reading the election analysis on the Guardian and the Independent, and by far the best and most insightful comments about the election have been here, at the Maldovarium!
I have a question, as an ex-Australian and new Canadian with only a partial understanding of the UK political scene. Am I right in thinking that there are talks next week on power-sharing arrangements in Northen Ireland in which the UK govt is supposed to act as a sort of independent arbiter? If so, doesn’t a deal between the Tories and one of the two parties at the negotiating table sort of put the kibosh on that?
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