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16 November 2014 at 20:50 #35689
@arbutus – brilliant!
13 November 2014 at 19:13 #35467@fonsini – ah, I’d forgotten about you, kind of thought you’d gone off in a huff last time we collectively shut down your rather unpleasant and narrow minded nonsense. Anyone who watches Doctor Who basically to count the number of black characters in order to work out whether this is ‘feasible’ or not really is in the wrong place. Do please take your extremely unsubtle but definitely twisted illiberal agenda elsewhere.
11 November 2014 at 07:20 #35323Some fabulous stuff going on here, too much to keep up with, and too good for me to be able to add anything really significant. However, I am mulling particularly all of the thoughts about how this series deals with death, and I feel a blog coming on. Will post it here if it turns into anything sufficiently coherent/interesting. Specially loved @purofilion’s last post – beautifully expressed.
@janetteb – reclaim the Guardian from the trolls, would be great, but how? I crossed swords with head troll Needstobesaid in one of his former guises as Alexander way back, after The Girl Who Waited, and it was very much like banging one’s head against a brick wall. Taking him/them on is pointless – he steadfastly refuses to actually engage in the kind of dialogue that we have on this forum. I guess if we all flooded the site with our perceptions and ideas and comments and just ignored him and his ilk, we could shift the balance a bit?
5 November 2014 at 10:40 #34780@purofilion – I can picture it all too easily… very funny if you’re not the one on the inside of the self-locking door!
5 November 2014 at 08:07 #34773As if there isn’t enough to ponder and construct bonkers theories about – how, and why, did @purofilion get trapped in the cupboard? I doubt Moffat will shed any light at all on that one…
4 November 2014 at 12:56 #34731@otherstuff She knows it from the newspaper advert in Deep Breath that was used to get her and the Doctor to the restaurant.
3 November 2014 at 11:04 #34623I do think – hope – that the whole ‘conscious after death’ thing will be proved to be a fake, as it’s just too dark and hideous and traumatising a concept to bear, whether one has just been bereaved, or had to reassure a child that cremation can’t hurt the dead person, or not. In which case, are the inhabitants of the nethersphere actually proper dead, and in some sort of purgatory, a pending state before oblivion/heaven/hell or whatever it is that awaits us? Or have they been snatched in some way that separates them from their corporeal selves but not irrevocably so (until they press delete)? Not sure about how that is all going to play out, not at all. Lots more to be revealed on Saturday, I’m sure.
I am actually pondering more on the post-its and what they are telling us about Clara. I noted that a number of people believe that the phone call from Clara to Danny was made by a future Clara, but at present I just can’t get my head around that at all (timey wimey stuff often defeats me, I just have to accept what I’m told as I get a major headache if I try to actually comprehend). When the phone went dead at Danny’s end she genuinely seemed not to know what had happened – but unless I missed something, the Clara that initiated that call with all the shut upping, was the same as the one who was being told that Danny had had an accident and reacted with shock and disbelief. Aside from that I really want to get a closer look at all the post its – it seemed as though she had figured out something important, and urgent, and we never found out what it was because she only got as far as I love you – and the importance and urgency of that didn’t make sense without the context.
27 October 2014 at 17:47 #34209@ – well, lots of people really, but inc. @miapatrick, @purofilion, @zeitgeis… Clara’s lying seems to me to be a compulsion rather than forced on her by the situation with either the Doctor or Danny. In every situation with either of them where she has the chance to tell the truth, she opts for a lie instead. Why? I don’t honestly think it’s down to Danny forcing things (even if I do have my doubts about him). It’s so pervasive, so consistent, that there must be some deeper reason for it I think. Though I am obviously prepared to eat those words should the finale tell us otherwise.
27 October 2014 at 08:00 #34192Fascinating discussions here, as always, and as always I feel I have very little to add! However, for what it’s worth…
Re Danny, I am uneasy. I can see both perspectives (@blenkinsopthebrave and @bluesqueakpip). Clara’s incessant, compulsive lying makes Danny seem more responsible – but whose fault was it that they lost a child? How long was Maebe missing – and how did neither Danny nor Clara (nor any of the other children) notice? And this is a child who is known to be extremely vulnerable, on medication, etc etc. And twice (as noted by others) he leads the children out of a place of safety into the unknown, into the forest which represents unknown hazards, and the strong possibility of getting lost (all of them, or some of them). Clara’s lying bothers me a lot. I find myself willing her not to do it, and then frustrated, and baffled when she inevitably does, to both the Doctor and Danny.
I don’t have a problem per se with the threat that turns out to be benign – but the denouement was just too easy. Everything is back to rights, and humanity will, apparently, forget it all happened. How does that work? (Though we have another to add to our list of superpowers – we learned in Listen that fear is one, now we are told that forgetting is a superpower too…). And the reappearance of the missing sister – unless that turns out to be part of the overall narrative arc, which probably means it’s a lot darker than it appeared – was again just too easy, she’s been gone a year, and with hugs and smiles all is now fine. I am notoriously weepy, and Doctor Who often gets me going, but whilst I was touched by the portrayal of Maebe overall , that ending left me dry-eyed.
It does feel as if we are just holding our breath now, for the finale and whatever explanations/resolutions it brings…
6 October 2014 at 07:47 #33125Only one watching, as usual, and I was v tired but for what they’re worth, one or two thoughts.
The Annabels concurred re the daft science but for me that’s not a deal-breaker – oddly enough less so as I work with physicists, and know how the community is divided on theories about the universe (eg dark matter), and as I always recall a dear and sadly departed physicist friend used to say, science isn’t an exact science.
Courtney – I may have got this wrong but I thought the ‘vortex manipulators’ was a joke, that she brought travel sickness tablets or those wristband thingies and the Doc called them vortex manipulators? Re her not being special, did anyone else think of the way in which ‘special’ is used to mean ‘needing extra help and support’? Certainly in our household if we say to each other, yes, you’re very ‘special’, that’s what we mean… Loved the idea of the Doc shutting her in the Tardis, saying ‘don’t touch anything’! I guess if he thinks she’s 35 rather than 15…
Any significance in the Doc asserting that he didn’t kill Hitler? Given that Let’s Kill Hitler was the episode where we met Mels…
Re Clara’s choice, I think I agree that her communication to earth was an attempt to duck the decision. Given that she could never know actually what the majority of earth citizens thought, or how many had received the message let alone understood the implications, she was just hoping for something to let her off the hook. That could be why she asked them to turn the lights off if they disagreed with her – if they didn’t get the message then they would take no action and lights that were on would (by and large) stay on, which she could then interpret as a vote for the creature to live (and not worry too much about the half of the globe she couldn’t see!). The failure of that plan meant that she had to go with her gut instinct – which turned out to be right. If the Doc did know, it was a pretty horrific thing to do to her – and potentially to humanity. I guess we have to believe he didn’t, and so left it to her conscience to make the choice and take the gamble either way.
Phew. Got to use my brain for other stuff.
2 October 2014 at 17:45 #32871@arbutus Absolutely – enjoyed, not fully agreed with. It was refreshing that the writer was putting a different point of view without demonising those with whom he was disagreeing. And yes, the show has its roots in diversity – as the Adventures in Time & Space drama (which was absolutely wonderful, I thought) made clear, with the key parts played by a young Jewish woman and a young Indian man, and a Canadian of Jewish Russian refugee heritage in making the programme happen, and making it a success.
2 October 2014 at 07:32 #32856http://www.denofgeek.com/tv/doctor-who/32264/doctor-who-and-faith-bigger-on-the-inside
Doctor Who hosts a frank and open discussion about the things that matter most to us as human beings: love, death, forgiveness, safety, adventure, and yes – belief.
Interesting piece here about Who and faith. As a humanist (I prefer that as a positive statement of what I do believe in, rather than atheist which defines me by what I don’t) I’ve always claimed Who, along with the Whedon oeuvre, for ‘my’ side. But this is a nice article, and timely in light of the weirdness on the Gblog, where atheism seems to be equated with nihilism.
2 October 2014 at 07:14 #32855@phaseshift To really admire it I’ve found it beneficial to stop a safe distance away from it. Yorkshire is perfect. I can really admire London from Yorkshire.
A good point, well made. The view of London from Sheffield is pretty damn fine. Mind you, the view of hills and moorland from my dining room window in Sheffield is awesome.
29 September 2014 at 21:38 #32710@scaryb thanks for the Alice clip – I remember watching that on TotP!
@arbutus totally agree that the Doc should not fit in too well. I adored Tennant, but with hindsight and without the distraction of his considerable charms, I think he was too human, and Smith set things back on track from that point of view.
28 September 2014 at 19:42 #32640@scaryb I checked again with my son who is (a) a fount of knowledge on a great many topics, including (but not restricted to) football, American history and politics, the Spanish civil war, Marvel superheroes, AG Who, and otters. He is very certain about the otters, so otters it is.
The Guardian blog comments this week appear to have been taken over by someone ranting about atheist subtexts and it’s all a bit tedious.
28 September 2014 at 18:18 #32634Is it remotely possible that in Clara’s rant about Jane Austen she referred to Blorgons? Because that would be – whilst completely arc-irrelevant – rather nice. http://madmanwithabooth.wikia.com/wiki/Inspector_SpaceTime_Wiki
28 September 2014 at 17:12 #32628Only just watched it, and just the once, so lacking in any terribly coherent thoughts.
@thebrainofmoffat – Auton or otter – I heard auton, my son definitely went with otter, and his hearing is likely to be better than mine what with being young and all.
@phileasf – The parents’ evening comment – I didn’t register it at the time, but (and without winding back to get the exact words) I’d be inclined to read ‘you’ as ‘the school’, rather than Mr Pink personally. I don’t think the derelict building can be the junk yard – didn’t we see the junk yard a while back (during 11’s tenure I think) looking pretty much as it used to?
Once again the monster was a McGuffin, hard to believe it was a real threat to the entire world, but it did what it was intended to do, and I don’t think it will prove to be part of any arc.
Re Courtney, time travel could introduce all sorts of new ways for her to live up to her name (Disruptive Influence) – just remembering why Barbara and Ian were looking for the Doc in the first place, because they were concerned about Susan’s behaviour, claiming the teachers had their facts wrong etc…
14 September 2014 at 12:00 #31622Well, that was fantastic. Genuinely creepy. Reminded me a lot of something Stephen King said about how when we’re grown-ups we know there’s no monster under the bed, and we also know that if we get on to and off the bed quickly enough the monster under the bed can’t get us…. And he knows a bit about such things.
Haven’t worked out what I think yet about Rupert/Danny/Orson etc (and what about the Blue chappie from Into the Dalek? Does he/how does he fit in?).
I’m persuaded tho that the boy in the barn was the Doctor, not the Master. I didn’t interpret the adults in that scene as parents though, rather as the people in charge of some kind of Time Lord prep school?
Someone on Reddit (a place I do not go but I know those who do) apparently has said that the ‘fear makes companions of us all’ speech is said (or something like it) by Hartnell’s Doc. I can’t verify that but I’m sure someone here will track it down if so!
That’s it for now. No time to re-watch, have got a train to catch. And may not get much chance to revisit these discussions let alone contribute before next week’s ep, sadly. I will however be in unfamiliar hotel rooms in rather creaky old hotels over the next few days… I’m sure there’ll be nothing under the bed, nothing at all…
Have fun all!
And listen… don’t breathe …. don’t hold your breath – and of course, don’t blink.
7 September 2014 at 19:58 #31275Enjoyed the episode – it felt a bit like a little light relief (although with hints and echoes of the darker themes). But the badinage between Doc and Hoody also reminded me a lot of the ‘banter’ between the various doctors in DotD, even down to the bit where they’re in a cell not working together to come up with a coherent plan… Significant? Who knows…
31 August 2014 at 20:21 #30807@fonsini If this is a parody of BTL Daily Mail/Express UKIppery then cleverly done, though really, most of us would probably rather you hadn’t.
If not, I think you’re in entirely the wrong place. We’ve all been brainwashed far too effectively, as you predict, to be won over by your arguments. Otherwise, how could we fail to conclude that the possibility of a stunning white woman fancying a stunning black guy is evidence of social engineering rather than just one of the sort of things that actually happens, in real life, even outside London? How could we fail to see that the show is swarming with hordes of black actors for no good reason other than social engineering, rather than because they are excellent actors? How could we fail to see that Doctor Who is the reason girls were sexually abused in Rotherham … etc etc.
In other words, you won’t be swayed even a little bit by any reasoned arguments we put up against your skewed, bigoted vision of the world, we will just confirm you in that vision. Please go away and talk to like-minded people – you know where you can find them, there are plenty of you, sad to say. Just not here.
31 August 2014 at 19:06 #30797@devilishrobby Yes, I thought the crack looked familiar… Significant? Not sure, could just be Moffatt messing with our minds.
31 August 2014 at 17:38 #30787Oh, and last week we had ‘don’t breathe’, this week, ‘don’t not breathe’. Whatever next…
31 August 2014 at 17:01 #30781Just watched the episode, an interesting mixture of daft and dark… Lots of interesting things developing here, notably the Missy mystery (agreed that it must be significant that Gretchen was the only one of the soldiers who died to make it to ‘Heaven’ and that that sheds light on Humpty’s demise), and Danny Pink (being a firm non-believer as far as coincidences are concerned, I’m fairly sure there’s a link with Journey Blue, but will await developments as to what that is and what it means).
The soldier thing – I know there were always tensions in Pertwee Doc’s relationship with UNIT but he did work with them, and there was a strong mutual regard between him and the Brig (which has already been referenced in the AG Who – can’t remember which ep but I think it was 11 – and possibly in this one with ‘Courtney’). So what’s changed?
There was another blackboard with formulae thingies on it but my physics/maths geek chums haven’t analysed those yet…
27 August 2014 at 16:17 #30399@fatmaninabox – I didn’t even try, years of working with physicists and mathematicians have taught me to nod sagely and say nowt. I should have put a health warning on the link though – ‘may cause spontaneous cerebral combustion’ …
27 August 2014 at 13:29 #30394@steve-thorp @scaryb – re the Doc’s scribbled equations, wouldn’t you know it, someone has analysed them all:
http://www.tychosnose.com/the-science-at-the-end-of-the-whoniverse/
Doesn’t sound as though they will contribute very much to our bonkerising, but just in case anyone is interested!
On another point – the dinosaur. Do we know for sure that Vastra is talking about this planet’s pre-historic creatures?
25 August 2014 at 15:46 #30193@fivefaces – no problem, we’re all independently coming to (some) of the same conclusions around here, and it’s impossible to keep up with who was first to spot what! I’m @cathannabel here I think (so many identities – hard to keep track!).
Over on Reddit they’ve identified the specific location that was used in The Girl Who Waited and other episodes, including The Girl in the Fireplace and Forest of the Dead, both of which have featured in our discussions of Deep Breath.
http://www.reddit.com/r/gallifrey/comments/2eeyic/theory_heaven_is_actually_apalapachia_the/
http://www.doctorwholocations.net/locations/dyffryngardens
All of which may simply tell us that it’s a good location and within budget, etc. BUT – we don’t have any truck with that kind of simplistic thinking round here, do we. In any case, even if that was the reason for choosing it, it would have presumably been very easy to make it look sufficiently different that we wouldn’t have realised. They didn’t do that, and I think that suggests that there’s some significance in it. However, having looked for images from TGITF and FOTD there seems to be only limited use of the place, whereas the shots of the garden in DB match those in TGWW very closely. And if you look at the website, that seems to be the Pompeian garden which one could get over-excited about if one was so inclined.
http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/dyffryn-gardens/visitor-information/
Going for a bit of a lie down now.
25 August 2014 at 14:15 #30180The Guardian blog’s comment section seems to have spontaneously combusted….
24 August 2014 at 22:12 #30098BTW a colleague and Eng Lit scholar has just tweeted this: ‘Caught up with Dr Who. A dinosaur and spontaneous combustion in nineteenth-century London? Echoes of Dickens’s *Bleak House*! ‘ I’d thought of the spontaneous combustion reference but had completely forgotten this quote from the beginning of the novel: “it would not be wonderful to meet a Megalosaurus, forty feet long or so, waddling like an elephantine lizard up Holborn Hill.”
Kudos to Dr Amber Regis of Sheffield Uni for spotting this!
24 August 2014 at 15:37 #30069Well, I had to wait till this afternoon to watch it as is traditional with the family gathered on or around the sofa, and I was getting rather agitated as various people created various entirely unnecessary delays (some of them devised solely to wind me up). And then I ended up holding my breath for much of the episode, so I’m not sure I’m in any fit state to comment. I will, obviously, regardless.
Yes, I loved it. The plot was in some ways an irrelevance although we know that Missy and her robot heaven will have a significant role to play, especially if you lot are right about who she is (and I think you probably are). The dinosaur was kind of a joke, I guess, the opening sequence a homage to all those monster movies (and past series of Who) where alien or ancient creatures stomp around in familiar cityscapes. But when the Doc was apparently channelling Dinosaur in its lonely lostness it reminded me of Eleven and the Minotaur in The God Complex – is he ‘translating’, or is it his own thoughts we’re hearing?
Will have to give some thought to the fact that Missy’s Paradise is the garden from The Girl Who Waited. Coincidence? Don’t believe in them. There were droids in that too, n’est-ce pas?
Lots and lots of references to Who past, and the now obligatory ‘You’ve redecorated. I don’t like it’ as Twelve revamps the Tardis.
That will have to do for now. I’m going to whiz over to the Guardian blog and take another deep breath and read below the line. I have a feeling they won’t have liked it. Ah well, I can then come back here and exchange or just enjoy bonkers theories in a much more civilised environment.
Loving Capaldi, looking forward hugely to the rest of the series.
4 January 2014 at 19:15 #239323 January 2014 at 21:53 #23889@scaryb – can’t complain that much, family watching chez Annabel has included not only Who, but also Walking Dead and Misfits (so inappropriate!), and have been spared X Factor or any programmes of that ilk. And at least now she’s older she doesn’t take umbrage when I mock a little bit…
3 January 2014 at 21:34 #23886Yeah, what is this ‘casual viewer’ nonsense? On the occasions when I sit down with my daughter to watch a bit of Hollyoaks (in the interests of mother-daughter bonding, you understand), she has to pause the recording every few mins while I ask idiotic questions about who /what/why. So on that basis, Hollyoaks is unfairly alienating to the casual viewer and should dumb its storylines down a bit to make them more accessible for someone who wanders in randomly part way through…
2 January 2014 at 17:01 #23815Derren Brown again, eh! And does Molly make anyone think of scarf geek girl in TDotD?
1 January 2014 at 19:11 #23785@scaryb – all slightly fragile here too. We spent the afternoon watching Transamerica, and then for contrast Goodbye Mr Chips…. then found ourselves watching one of those collections of YouTube clips which seemed to mainly comprise people vacuuming their cats. And then three Big Bang Theory episodes in succession. Have now recovered sufficiently to put some Miles Davis on the CD player and even pour some wine. This could end badly…
1 January 2014 at 17:45 #23779@idiotsavon – (a), thanks! and (b) no such thing as coincidence…
@Monochrome Dimension – welcome!
31 December 2013 at 13:59 #23708Splendid! Keep bonkering on! My motto for 2014.
31 December 2013 at 12:08 #23689Indeed, happy birthday to this forum. So glad I found this place, where all the things I enjoyed about the Guardian blog were present and correct (all you lot, basically), and the things I hated and found depressing and tedious are banished. Here’s to 2014 – looking forward to speculation about the Capaldi doc, to keep us all going till he actually arrives. Thanks especially to those who set it up, and who keep it developing and running smoothly, and to all who contribute to it. It’s a remarkable space, this, in its good humour and generosity, as well as the exceptionally high calibre of bonkers theorising that goes on here. Long may it flourish.
30 December 2013 at 17:34 #23667I’d love a musical one. It absolutely has to have a narrative justification though – as the Buffy ep does – not just randomly have an episode obeying conventions from an entirely different genre. It also has to have great songs – as the Buffy ep does. And yes, it would cause mass apoplexy in certain quarters, but is that necessarily a bad thing?? Just asking…
But aside from that, in terms of episodes that could connect with Who, I’d certainly go for Hush. It’s reasonably self-contained, and as others have noted, the Gentlemen almost certainly influenced some recent Who big bads. It’s one of the scariest as well, proper behind the sofa stuff.
As for Angel, in some ways the whole Pylea arc is unusual in transplanting the action to another dimension/alien planet, so might be interesting to look at from a Who perspective. Epiphany – I’ll have to re-watch it to see how well it stands alone. I had forgotten though that Lorne references Zuzu’s petals in this one!
I’m still musing on this, so may come up with other ideas in due course…
29 December 2013 at 20:46 #23624@wolfweed ah, but this is still all within Who world, did Eric Ritchie Jr (don’t know where I got the D from) have a reality outside Who?
29 December 2013 at 20:24 #23620@wolfweed has reminded me – anyone got any thoughts on Eric D Ritchie – Thoughts on a Clock? I’d assume it’s just random except that there was no need to identify the author/source for a poem in a cracker, unless it was in some way significant.
29 December 2013 at 12:19 #23593Thanks @scaryb and @Phase Shift, I’ve sent it over. Hope it passes muster… The DEM blog has set the bar pretty damn high!
28 December 2013 at 19:13 #23541when her nan was talking bout her grandad to me it sounded like she was describing the doctor…
You don’t think… noooooo. Surely not. But …
In all the genealogical speculation when Clara first appeared, were we looking at the wrong generation?
28 December 2013 at 17:11 #23531OK, I have a bloggy thing about Frank Capra and Who. I can get it to you by some means or other if you think you could use it (obviously you can read it before you decide anything – I won’t claim my Jammy Dodgers unless you feel it’s worth posting!).
Cheers
27 December 2013 at 18:22 #23492@Phase Shift Jammy dodgers, eh? How can I resist. Just starting to jot a few thoughts down now. Don’t tell my PhD supervisors – unless I can think of a way to weave some reference to W G Sebald’s oeuvre into this, I don’t think I can pass it off as part of my ‘real’ research…
27 December 2013 at 18:20 #23491Just a thought – the poem that was in the cracker, Eric D Ritchie’s Thoughts on a Clock. My googling has only brought up quotes from and references to this episode – does anyone know if it was a real poem?
27 December 2013 at 16:19 #23485@Phase Shift – don’t tempt me! I’m supposed to be writing a whole other thesis which sadly has no connections whatsoever to either Who or Capra. But if I have the odd moment …
27 December 2013 at 14:45 #23478Oh, and I can second the recommendation as well. That book scared me half to death. And whilst the film is great, it loses a lot of the tragedy in the novel, because Jack Nicholson makes Jack Torrance a raving psychopathic axe murderer from the start, who just hasn’t happened to actually axe murder anyone yet. In the book, you see a personality disintegrate and that’s both chilling and terribly sad. But I could go on about Stephen King for ages and that belongs on another forum so will shut up now.
27 December 2013 at 14:42 #23477Excellent call @phaseshift, I hadn’t made the Shining connection, but I would be v v surprised if that wasn’t lurking somewhere in the background when the Angels were dreamed up.
26 December 2013 at 20:45 #23417I agree with @blenkinsopthebrave. Not for the first time in NuWho, the themes of ageing, of loss, of choices made, and chances missed were so powerful here, and very moving. I thought (as I often do) of the best film in the world, It’s a Wonderful Life, which I have always argued is not a film that the young will really appreciate (I read a comment from a 20-something just today, who was underwhelmed by it, and I’d argue with her except that she’s a 20-something who will never be a 40-something and that’s a whole other order of godawful sadness ). But, if you’re old enough to have lost people, to have had to make hard choices, to have got some of them wrong, and to have missed chances that will not come round again – then you can feel for George Bailey, and you can feel for the Doctor too. Actually there are loads of links and echoes – will go away now and write a thesis on the influence of Frank Capra’s film on the RTD/Moffatt era Who…
25 December 2013 at 21:16 #23376Still a bit too emotional to analyse anything TBH but I’ll echo @magnetite‘s ‘rather splendid’.
The Grauniad seems to assume that the Time Lords restarted the clock on the regenerations, making Capaldi no. 1 in a new sequence but was that explicit? It makes sense, I hope that is it. God, I’ll miss Matt though.
Apparently, ‘Caves of Androzani this was not’. Good.
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