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Arghh was it my sky signal or was there a problem with the sound at the end of the episode

 

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@wolfweed well the Doctor Who Page Facebook page has another xmas runner pic which absolutely leaves no uncertainty as to a characters identity it’s the clearest picture of said character (sorry can’t figure out how to post the page from my iPad)

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@wolfweed oh my that gives the fans a sqeee factor of 25 on the 0-10 scale and confirms some long standing  rumours

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@nick I think the BBC made a commercial decision on the 45 minute thing as outside of BBC on commercial channels you have to factor in the time added by commercial breaks which makes a BBC 45 minute programme 1 hour long. When watching  Who on say What was Uk Gold for example the episodes are shown over an hour

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Hmm I actually like the idea of this all being some kind of simulation al la Extremis, as to why the Doctor regenerates well what if the Doctor has known he was going to need to regenerate but hasn’t been sure he was going to because of what happened in Hell Bent ( well it always puzzled me why he didn’t just regenerate each time he died) and in reality has been trying to convert Missy to take over as the Doctor.

As to The TLs I was glad to see them reintroduced instead of the Doctor  just being the last of the time lords. Having said that now that they exist in the whoverse once again there’s no need for them to be making constant appearances, a good character or plot concept should be used sparingly.

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Ahhh @nerys in response to your post on WE&T if rumours are true it could be 3 Doctors and 2 Masters

 

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@nerys well if rumours are true……. arrrgh hmm will have to slip over to spoilers to respond to your last comment in the previous post

 

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Going off track slightly here but if anyone else was a Babylon 5 fan, was any one else struck by the similarity in mannerisms initially between the Master/Razor and Zathrus

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Is iusedtobethedoctor  a troll or just an offensive and immature poster. Now i can swear with the best of them but on here i try to moderate the language I use as I am aware we may have younger  members involved and try to show by example that derogatory and offensive use of language is not the way to hold a reasonable conversation even when disagreeing with someone else’s opinion. I am pleasantly surprised that no one else had replied to the comments but thought you should be aware of them in the World and time enough thread.

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The issue the Doctor has he’s now faced with a similar dilemma that he faced in Genesis of the Daleks he Could be potentially be affecting the timeline of the universe and incidentally his own time line. Bill is the first Monosian type Cyberman and if he stops their further development and either manages to decyberise Bill or even kill her( for the greater good) the cyber race might never come to pass as this ship is the birthplace of the cybermen. In addition to this from statements by Sims Master to Missy I get the feeling the Master has a greater part in the genesis of the CyberRace so if Missy interferes she’s also interfering with her own timeline as the Masters statement about worrying about his future incarnation firmly places Missy as post SimsMaster.

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Omg OmgOmg worked out the janitor wasn’t what he appeared about halfway through and guessed at the Master about 3/4 of the way thought Bill might just avoid full cyberization  though. Damn didn’t see her effectively being the first cyberman though. Really need a  second, third and fourth rewatching to really absorb the full ramifications and damn it looks like the Doctor’s regeneration is going to be triggered by something that happens next week judging from the beginning of the episode.

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At this point I wil be disappointed with Moffat if Bill is killed although this appears to be what is going to happen as in my own opinion this would essentially be a rehash of last seasons ending with the Doctor  again trying to find some loophole with which to save Bill. As to the possibility of Missy returning to her evil ways or even dying trying to do good we will have to see as in my opinion these would be the more interesting reasons for the Doctor  falling. In fact with the situation with Bill almost being a carbon copy of last year I am wondering if  Capaldi was originally planning on leaving the show last year and was persuaded to stay

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I don’t know if anyone else has picked up on this yet but I’ve just received one of the BBC newsletters (I’ve only recently signed up for them) and to my great surprise  Radio 4 extra are running a (gasp horror)  new Colin Baker Doctor Who audio play at 6 pm tonight24/6/17  supposedly written for TV but obviously  never made when he was canned as they say.

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@sjk1000 that’s easily explained they just do some kind of conversation that they did with Clara. Where she had a conversation on the tardis phone with Matt Smith at the end of the first episode with Capaldi where he persuades her to stay with the new Doc.

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<p style=”text-align: left;”>Now that’s just plain stupid of Moffat the theory of time dilation effect of a black holes corona just wouldn’t be that great from where I am understanding this ship is and 400 miles is just not a big enough distance. Hell  to get the sort of theoretical time differation they are talking about I would imagine the end of the ship will have to pactically be sitting on the event horizonwhich would mean the ship would be being torn apart, unless they have Gallifreyan technology that is…..</p>

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@nick my purpose in commenting about Susan’s status as either Time lady or ordinary Gallifreyan it had a bearing on the ability of the production team to cast another actress in the role of Susan. Of course there are other ways of becoming a Time lord/lady, though to be fair River actually paralleled the time lords method in that she had been prenatally exposed to the time vortex by the Ponds travels in the Tardis.

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On the Susan returns debate in theory it is very easily done and not needing the original actress if working on the premises that Susan was a first regeneration time lady another actress cold stand in as a later incarnation. Of course if Susan is just an ordinary Galliferyan that then becomes more problematic as my understanding and I will happily be corrected is that it it takes exposure to the schism of the time vortex to make a galliferyan into a Timelord.

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@thane15 Chris Hemsworth =Thor the current Hollywood beefcake de jour

 

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@thane15 agreed and unfortunately although in my opinion Peter has been a great dramatic actor in the role for the bean counters at the Beeb he hasn’t had the heart throb appeal that the likes of David and Matt brought to the role so I am expecting that the new Doctor if they haven’t gone the gender changing route will definitely be much younger. In today’s broadcasting environment if it goes international they are trying to capture the widest possible spectrum so having just a good actor/actress isn’t enough if the could I bet they would get a Chris Hemsworth in the role just to pull the audience. Yes and I realise I am properly being a tad cynical in thinking this.

 

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You do realise that in effect a character like the Master never truly dies especially in a series that involves time travel. Look at all the adventures that River has had since she died. All it needs is for the writers to say” I think we need to use the Master/Missy in this story oh but he/she is is dead. Don’t worry we’ll take him/her from a point before their death”.  I mean we have all been speculating on where Missy and the Master  are on their personal Time lines  any way so an extra adventure can always be fit in by the writers by saying oh this happened for him/her before all that happened. So no need for sad thoughts on the loss of a character 😉

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Lol @wolfweed just read the article because your comment intrigued me wasn’t worth the bother nothing really new was said

 

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Now I kind of agree that part of the finale is quite probably going to involve the fall of Missy and from the evidence of various trailers Missy appears to to be teaming up with Sims Master possibly meaning she falls/reverts to being evil again and this is the meaning of the Doctor falls, but remember guys and gals this is Moffat we’re talking about and to paraphrase “the Moffat Lies”. Moffat would surely not let any clips previews out that are going to give major plot elements away.

What if instead we have a Missy “playing up” to the Master in order foil his plan just as she has done unsuccessfully with the Doctor in the past and she is literally going to fall….. to her death. This would very possibly tie into the fact that Michelle Gomez has stated she is leaving the show after this season. Of course Michelle could be misdirecting us especially she has only said she is leaving as Missy and the riff we have seen in the next time clip where she exits the Tardis introducing hereself as the Doctor might be a not so subtle hint as to her actually being the next Doctor as some have speculated.

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Arrrrgh just lost a post because I didn’t realise I wasn’t logged in so here goes again….

Had a  bit of a bonkers thought prompted by a notification when some one who used the “who nose” comment from the 50th aniversary

I thought what if the Sims Master we are to see is not the past Sims Master but as speculated after the 50th anniversary Baker/Curator a future regeneration using the same face. It would certainly solve the problem that Missy must know what is about  to happen and has just been stringing the Doctor along if he is is indeed the past Sims Master. Though if as I’ve previously speculated Missy is actually a pre Jacobi Master then she won’t have pre knowledge of the upcoming events. Oh this timey whimy thinking is giving me a headache

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I know the article says that missy is a later regeneration of the master than the Sims master but do we really know this to be true. If so does the Doctor also know this.

I think we already know that the Master is in his/her  second set of regenerations because when the Master was the assassin in the tom baker story (and I apologise that I don’t remember the story title), I seem to remember  that when the time lords later covered up the state of the masters body  something along the lines that his appearance was due to his trying to extend his life past his 12th regeneration (Which by the way I don’t know was ever clocked when all the discussions were being floated when Matt Smith announced his leaving and everyone was trying to figure out how they were planning on the Doctor being able to regenerate to the Capaldi Doc). I also seem to remember in  sound of the drums when sims first appears he said that the time lords had bought him back in the time wars which kind of indicated that the time lords had given him a new regeneration cycle. That would mean SimsMaster is  at the least the masters second or third regen of the cycle and hence  JacobiMaster being either the first or second of that cycle. Given that Sims “died” by refusing to regenerate ,ok he was subsequently resurrected. But given that the master in The End Of Time appeared to be unstable manifestation, how did he manage to regenerate to the Missy form given that I surely don’t think that Rassilon would have being inclined to help him given his being so instrumental in thwarting his plans.

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@nick and the 2008 Outlander was loosely based on the  Norse Beowulf story which was my first comparison. Like you I also liked the Missy interaction at the end but I got the definite feeling that the Doctor isn’t  entirely convinced of Missy’s  reformation.

 

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If the regen is definitely happening in the Xmas special and not in the doctor falls, my guess the next doctor reveal will be made between the season finale  and the xmas special so as not to switch the focus from Capaldi’s performance to arguments over the new actors credentials to play the part. Lol not that it hasn’t had us speculating anyway over the prospective candidates.

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@blenkinsopthebrave I was reading an article the other day saying that the announcement should be mid summer but if memory serves they did the big Capdocs reveal just after the 50th anniversary it was done as a big reveal show on BBC 1.  My guess is that they will have to do the reveal announcement before the new doc starts filming for the Xmas special regeneration scene. Especially if he/she is one of the already speculated front runners for the new doc

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Love the idea of Gomez as the Doctor but don’t think it is likely. If she hadn’t already so brilliantly pulled off the gender change of the master I would have said she would have been an ideal candidate for the role of the first female Doctor she’s been charismatic and has shown brilliant acting skills.

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Not sure if this is the right place or not and I am not sure if this has possibly been discussed elsewherefor but here goes. On the topic of Pearl Makay possibly only being around for one season, my personal hope is she will be around for a while. In post gap Who it has not been unusual for companions to be there for only one season both Martha and Donna were there for only one season though admittedly Rose, Amy and Clara were multiple seasons. For Bill to be there for one season only would not be unprecedented and would essentially make it a 50/50 mix of multiple vs single series companions obviously not including co-companions like Rory and Captain Jack who were in part companion to companions. As to the earlier discussion as to what now appears to have been “fake news” about Ms Makay’s on set behaviour I really don’t believe the BeeB would have tolerated such behaviour  probably resulting in the immediate termination of her contract irrespective of how it would have affected production, and there would certainly have been leaks from other reliable  sources. My guess is that this was possibly a rumour started by the bigots who have had issues with Pearls character i.e. being gay etc.

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Omg some one ☝️ s for a royal ass kicking from the Beeb if that is right

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Well just finished my second viewing and i really cant shake the feeling theres something we’re all missing but for the life of me I can’t put my finger on what it is. For one why did the doctor seem to be reluctant to initially get involved and secondly why was Nardole so happy even perhaps eager for the Doctor to be involved. Given his apparent previous reluctance for the doctor to leave his charge of the vault I cant quite believe his sudden acceptance of the doctor to get involved.and without the risk of spoilers i cant help but think of  the way Martha reset the time line.

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I don’t suppose anyone has dared to mention the similarities between the veritas  aliens and the the Silence. Also some of us older fans will have seen the nod to the Baker/Sarah Jane BG who story Android Invasion.

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This is partly bonkerising and partly spoilerish so hence the reason for putting this out here. Earlier this week I was in my local news agents and spotted a sub headline with Michelle Gomez sayin “why I left Dr Who”  oh no I thought as I have enjoyed Mz Gomez as Missy and tried to see if I could see the article and what I could brief see seemed to be supporting this headline though I was strapped for time and couldn’t read much.If anyone else has perhaps seen the entirety of this article to reassure me that this ain’t so. Now leading to the bonkerising this caused me to consider the fact that Sims is returning as the master now I wondered if we have in fact been seeing the Master out of sequence and in fact Missy is actually a pre Jacobi version of the master. Yes I realise most of you will be screaming impossible but I thought this at least deserved your collective thoughts.

as an addendum I’ve just Googled Michelle leaving and seen a Radio Times online article and it appears to be true boo hoo

 

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@missrori there’s one slight problem with the sisterhood of Karn assisting the doctor regaining his sight, I think he may have  made himself persona non gratis after he events of Hell Bent and Heaven Sent and the elixir of life I think will only work to control what direction a regeneration will take as it did to create the war doctor.

 

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@jimthefish after reading the above article I can’t help but feel they surely can’t be doing what effectively would be a repeat of  doing the Tenent/Smith regeneration and beginning 12s regeneration in or at the end of the season 10 finale .  In the End of Time we had an admittedly lovely 15-20 minuets of the Doctor revisiting past companions before finally regenerating so there is a precedence that the regeneration process can be extended or prolonged. Thinking about it, that even had its own precedent  in the before  gap who Tom Baker/ Davidson regen in that the Baker doc seems to be aware he is about to regenerate in the Logopolis Story. However to get back to the original track of the conversation I just feel it would be “sloppy” writing for Moffat as it would mean whatever peril is faced in Capaldi’s final Xmas Special would have no real sense as we and the character would know he is regenerating anyway. I would prefer that the regeneration to come as a “surprise” for Capaldi docs character rather than the end of a procession through the episode if that makes any sense.

 

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<p style=”text-align: center;”>Right fellow whovians I have a bit of a challenge for you. I have been racking my brains and searching my bookshelves looking for a book I read quite awhile ago, way back in the late 90s. Unfortunately I cant remember the author or the darn books name😤😤 probably because of quantity of books I have read. The main points from the plot I remember is that it was about an order of knight/paladins who existed  for good to go into battles with impossible odds always leaving behind one last knight to rebuild the order. If I remember right the Order was limited to 100 knights and the story was about the last knight of the order who was then getting old trying to rebuild the order to fight an impending major threat. The story was set in a semi mystical medieval world. I had thought it was by david Gemmel and was called the legend of the 100 but this doesn’t seem to match any of his books. Any help in “scratching” the itch not being to remember the books title and author name would be greatly appreciated.</p>
 

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Well will that be Rivers final swan Song (sorry couldn’t resist it) but seriously I think we finally got the goodbye that River deserves.Though I do wonder given Capdocs recent history weather he will find some way to bring her back from the library’s computer.

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@blenkinsopthebrave very good points about the doctor and the fact that capdoc is the first in a new regeneration cycle, hartnelldoc was also initially a dislikable  and alien personality that gradually warmed as his contact with humanity seemed to mellow him. Yes  I know this has almost certainly been discussed before but with SM’s decision to get around the the regeneration limit  by basically resting the doctors regeneration cycle he had enviable decisions to make as to weather this would in part or wholly reset the doctors personality to when we first met him in’63. In part it looks like he’s gone overall for the compromise of a partial reset of the doctors personality giving him that sometimes cold appearance. Overall I have enjoyed Capaldies portrayal of the Doctor so what if he isn’t the ” savoir  faire ” of the tenantdoc or the boyish charm of the smithdoc each incarnation has had thier own charms and foibles  which we seem to love and hate in varying measures.

 

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@juniperfish lol great minds I had just started thinking who else bar the timelord and Missy “they” could be and the shadow proclamation and the fact that there were judoon marked as police officers on the trap street came to mind.

 

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p

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first thoughts after seeing the episode

oh wow, it canna be true.

Then I stopped and thought, we know (and yes I suppose weve hashed this before in various ways) that Clara is the Impossible Girl and it got me thinking again has the Doctor been actually been travelling with a Claricle ever since the Name of the Doctor. This might account for Claras sometimes headlong dash at times to appear to out Doctor  the Doctor and has the Doctor been aware of this and the likelihood that it would lead to Clara`s ultimate death.

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@craig If paying a subscription meant you could pick and chose the server and possibly get better support for yourself as the administrator of the site security wise along with all the reasons I stated in my previous post. I am all for going down that route. I am sure from the comments made that the true bonkerising Whovians would be in agreement.

 

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@craig  sorry to hear that the volume of fan interaction with the site has caused you earache from the server providers. I for one if it came down to it would be happy to pay a small fee monthly or yearly if it became necessary especially if it enabled you to do all you want with the forum  and assisted in the smooth running of the site. As I for one would not want you to be out of pocket simply because of us fellow fans love of Who  and our fondness to put out our bonkers theorising out there for fellow fans.

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@stellaluce333 I wasn’t saying that the claricles just appeared or were not in someways born, but was proposing a reason for the Doctor not remembering her  encountering him especially when on at least one occasion she had directly interacted with him. Much like when at the end of the day of the doctor the Wardoc sadly states that he won’t remember any of the events of saving Gallifrey due the fact that he has in fact crossed his own timeline.

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Right everyone let me appologies in advance if i appear to mix up various debates and enteries but I`ve received so many emails overnight( i must really stop subscribing to following practically every thread it gets so confusing at times). On the subject of clara and the “claricles” and why the doctor didnt seem to recognise here subsequently my opinion is that its abit like when the doctor crosses his own timeline he isnt allowed or cant always remember the events or people until his later incarnation. remember the “claricles” were created by clara entering the doctors timeline/vortex whatever you want to call it so in effect in part she became a part of the doctor so hence a similar effect with regard to his remembering events (i really hope that makes sense).

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I am with others on the acronym debate I just hate them. As for episode acronyms why don’t people do what most archives would do which would be for  example doctor 1 season 1 episode 1 and for quickness reduced to D1S1E1 which would be the episode an unearthly child. there is surely lists somewhere listing the episodes somewhere online that give the episodes/storys in thier chronological order.

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Now I am not entirely sure if this belongs here and to a certain extent may be considered a spoiler ( @craig feel free to move this post if it is) but prompted by the comments by @mudlark about a timelord/Dalek hybrid. There  was one proposed if unsuccessfully attempted by the Daleks previously in the book  Engines of war featuring the Wardoc. Though counting this would need for the book to be counted as part of the cannon of who.

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Wow what an episode. Loved the wearable sonics lol. Now did they try and slip in the origins of Susan there. Though the 1st law of the Doctor comes to mind and I suppose it should be amplified a gadzillion times for the master/missy so anything he/she says should be considered an outright lie. Hmmm need to cogitate, ruminate and generally review the events before any more thoughts.

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Loved the episode, but I can’t shake the feeling that perhaps there is something going on that we can’t/haven’t seen yet. It seems just a bit too convenient that that the doctor is trapped with one of his oldest nemesis. One wonders if perhaps given what happened if the doctors perceptions of what happened are being messed with.

 

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Just watched it all I am saying is hmmmm yes it sounds like there are some spoilerish information in the prequel but to be honest it looked as if they are setting up for the first episode

 

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