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@countscarlioni

.It seems to me that in BG Who, there was a strong emphasis on tight stories. In AG Who, there is far less concern for tight stories and much more emphasis on the dramatic flourish or the `thing’ (I wish I’d come up with this independently, but it’s from a commentary discussion by Barry Letts and Terrance Dicks on a BG story,  but I think they’re right).  I’ve come to think this is particularly true for SM and that he just does not sweat what seem to him to be relatively minor plot points or even sometimes quite big ones.

I think there’s a fair bit of selective memory going on here (a touch of the Ashildr syndrome: we only have room for the good stuff 😉 ). There was a lot of padding and many, many inconsistencies and retconning all the way through BG Who (practically from the move from concept to the first episode, in fact). Some stories were very tight, some…not so much.

Moffat is all about tight stories – I find it baffling that people would think otherwise. What he is very good at – and this goes back to Press Gang and Coupling – is hiding the craft behind layers of characterisation. It seems very obvious to me that he does sweat the small stuff – but is quite willing to make the decision that any given issue can be ignored, or left for later.

Oh, and the other thing he won’t do is spell out the obvious for the least attentive kid in class.

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@ichabod

He has always said that his kids need to be able to understand Who. He has been consistent about that – and, imo, truthful, but he is very good at putting teasing window dressing in, from the dream catchers in S6 to the tarot (apparently) in this season.

The dream catchers were, of course, the most meta of clues as to Amy’s condition. Few modern TV writers understand the meta as well as Moffat. There is always the risk that it becomes a bit too knowing and inward-looking, but on the whole he manages to stay on the right side of the line.

Unlike the dickhead who thought he could school JK Rowling.

And this is just Absolute. Fucking. Genius:

 

 

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You’ve heard of mansplaining? Meet fansplaining:

 

 

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Passing thought: we are no closer to understanding the WWII set bit being filmed in Kettering a week or two back, as spotted by @sirclockface.

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A small detail, I suspect of no consequence in itself, but on the BBC site the vid of the teaser has a thumbnail of CapDoc in the diner (Elvis in the background). Not shown in said teaser.

 

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@tardigrade

Love your monicker. Sound SO Who, yet isn’t!

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@frobisher

Quite. Our times zones are two dimensional – essentially segments on a sphere.

The Doctor can see fixed points; it’s “how he sees the World” (Fire of Pompeii, iirc). I think there are more than the standard four dimensions in his …er… World view.

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BBC Extra about The Veil (maybe be slightly spoiler-y – hard to tell. Don’t think a key point about it is in-text yet)

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@puroandson

Whoa! That is truly spectacular.

(Not sleeping, just migrainey, so limiting screen time)

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@jphamlore

The obvious explanation (as I speculated in the episode thread) is that Gallifrey is in the past (relative to the Doctor – who nose when relative to us!) and that we are at the start of the Time War (The Prequel of the Doctor, as it were).

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@sirclockface

Comma-tastic!

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@starla

I still wonder why Me was dressed very much like the 80’s/90’s version of Clara’s mother in the selfie Clara took. There’s been no resolution to that yet .

Me stated very clearly that she did it to get the Doctor’s attention.

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@puroandson

Yep – each new copy is from the same….er….master, the teleport buffer (as noted by @jimthefish).

It was also a bit like Memento – each reloaded Doctor had to learn the same hard lesson, with no prior knowledge, before taking his bird peck at the the diamond wall, until spent, then using his body to fuel the new one, while leaving the clue. No bootstrap here: the first time through he took as long as needed to work it out and then left the clue, for the first time. A clear origin and end.

It occurs to me, BTW, that if Ashildr is, indeed, the Nightmare Child, then her events pertaining to Gallifrey pre-date the end of the Time War. ie this is not a pocket universe but a historical one.

Which to me raises the interesting idea that, in addition to ending the Time War, the Doctor may have run away from Gallifrey because he knew he was had set events in motion that would inevitably start it.

Now that would be a causal loop.

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@puroandson

You see him to to the back of the stage to grab the canister ( I used to have one like that for my Zippo. I no longer smoke, so the Zippo is more of an objet d’art these days).

(Also, had he done what you initially thought the resulting electric shock may well have been fatal!)

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@puroandson

This?

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@jimthefish

 ‘just what does it take to please some people?’

Fire that Verity Lambert woman to start with.

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@craig

Oh, that has a significant difference from the one show after the credits. A significant omission.

(Also was there a glimpse of a weeping angel in there?)

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@jimthefish

That would be too beautiful for words. So we need a new acronym. NIFTI (Nicking Ideas From The Internet) 🙂

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@delta

A clone is a living copy of a living thing.

No. A clone has none of the memories or life experience of the original (and has to be growth from embryo, with it’s DNA already thinking it is t0+n years old).

But the Doctor had all of his life experience right up to the moment of teleport. Whatever was storing him was much more sophisticated than mere cloning.

And he knew he was gradually chipping the diamond wall down prior to each restoration. That was the only thing that had to be relearned, because the back up did not have that data.

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@juniperfish

 I missed the costume designer for the Smithy era confirming that they were playing with red-shift and blue-shift in relation to the red and blue bow-ties

I’d be willing to be that’s a creative retcon. I reckon you gave them the idea with your obsessive diligent monitoring 😉

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@delta

Listen,

Yes, boss.

the premise is solid, but the cloning and the million,million
Corpses sort of mess the story up.

It wasn’t cloning, it was restoration from a backup (and idea very familiar to fans of Ian M Banks and quite low-tech to both Gallifrey and Karn, I’d suggest).

Also, this isn’t the Doctor anymore, it’s just a clone.

Nope-eroonie. See above.

On that note, how can Gallifrey just be existing billions of years in the future.

We are half way through a two parter (or two-thirds a three-parter, if you like).

Perhaps wait until the story is told. ‘Cos I’m will to bet that will be addressed.

By the way, The Hybrid is actually in doctor who in several forms:
Dalek Zeg, Dalek Cann, and any of the Daleks from the season opener.

Flatly contradicted in text.

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@delta

He seems to be willing to commit genocide, if you take the final scene into consideration.

There is absolutely no basis for that assertion.

Anyhoo anyone who stayed on the the teaser TREAD VERY CAREFULLY.

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*Faints*

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@puroandson

he…you know….all over his guitar…that was pretty ick

Poured lighter fuel over it (that’s how he set fire to it)…

Not a musician, but of a generation when blues-rooted guitar rock was in its pomp.

 

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@puroandson

As a LH person I have to learn guitar which means getting the strings swapped around I think? I don’t know really.

Possibly, but there are cases of RH people who play LH (if I played guitar I would have to play LH, but am mainly RH – however, I hold a pen like a LH and, apparently open jars like a left hander). Some pretty famous guitarists were righties who played left handed. Jimi Hendrix was LH but used a right handed guitar with the strings reversed (because his Dad thought being LH was a sign of the devil, so made him learn RH). Kurt Cobain played guitar left handed and drums right handed. Bob Geldof plays a right handed guitar upside down; Paul McCartney is right handed but plays LH (again, drums RH). @sirclockface can probably give more examples, but I think the point is to play the way that feels natural for you.

You should check out the Dave Matthews Band. The live stuff, rather than studio. He does a 12 min version of All Along The Watchtower with Carlos Santana guesting that will blow your mind. And @sirclockface will insist that you familiarise yourself with The Foo Fighters, but that’s a whole different topic.

The two John Wayne Westerns you should watch are True Grit and The Shootist and should then watch the Coen Brothers’ remake of True Grit for comparison).

But Josey Wales should be your priority.

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@puroandson

OR (courtesy of Mirriam Webster)

Full Definition of PLANGENT

1
: having a loud reverberating sound
2
: having an expressive and especially plaintive quality <plangent lyrics>
— plan·gent·ly adverb
See plangent defined for English-language learners
ADVERTISEMENT
Examples of PLANGENT

<plangent organ music filled the church>

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@puroandson

Could be face planted (a face plant is falling on your face)

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@ichabod

That was me, rather than @juniperfish. I’d suggest that “dealing” comes with the  idea of intent inbuilt. Malice is sufficient, but not necessary, to establish responsibility. Of course, the one who deals can be the self.

Anything else is an accident.

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@toinfinityandbepond

Watched the first couple of eps (not had time for more). Lovin’ the proper grasp of Noir.

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@juniperfish

Although the text has been hitting us over the head with Clara becoming Doctor-ish as a bit of a problem, I don’t think the fault, if there is fault, for her death (if it is her death) lies with her.

Oh, agreed. The fault for anyone’s death always lies with the one (or those) who dealt it.

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@craig

A little wrinkle I just noticed. If you use the search function at t’top of the page, results from the Spoiler forums are not spoiler protected.

That it has taken this long to notice is maybe a sing that it is no biggee, but if it is easy to fix it might be worth it.

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@juniperfish

Yes, I think Moffat is using the same caution as Whedon did in not being too specific about what a “soul” is and how it can be handled. @jphamlore‘s analysis, I think, is a massive over-reading of the evidence presented thus far.

On another matter, it has just occurred to me (JF – ta for the seed corn of thought) that Clara’s confrontation with Missy in the Canaries was very much a Chekhov’s Gun. She went toe-to-toe with Missy – having said to Kate that the Doctor was not needed – and was quickly and thoroughly humbled.

But she did not pick up the lesson. When the Gods give you a warning like that, you can be pretty sure that Nemesis has taken wing nearby and failure to take heed will have inevitable consequences.

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@puroandson

I wouldn’t say too many sentences as such, just that, on screen, big blocks of text are hard to read.

You just brought me a memory from my teen years of staying up late with mum on a Saturday night to watch the Midnight Movie on BBC2. Nearly always Hammer Horrors (or their equivalents from other studios). Christopher Lee’s Dracula, some…er…liberal interpretations of Denis Wheatley and just occasionally a bit of early Wes Craven.

Thanks for that, mate.

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@blenkinsopthebrave

Hmm. I suspect (from a not quite recall comment by Missy in Apprentice or Familiar) that the Gallifrey returned to might be historic. We know (from Clara’s brief visit) that past-Gallifrey is reachable.

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That Moffat is such a fucking hack! Stealing from Buffy again!

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@sirclockface

That’s technically (BBC Approved) spoiler.

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@nerys @puroandson

puro and son!

That sounds like a Cat Stevens song.

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@sirclockface

Oh, the scene was a blinder, but from the sniffiness in some quarters (esp the Guardian thread) you would think he’d come on naked.

Also, I think you may have exaggerated *just* a tad.

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@mirime

recklessness

It isn’t about recklessness per se (when it happens that is just a symptom) but about hubris. She badly – and in a somewhat self-aggrandising way – came to believe her own PR.

That rarely ends well.

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@puroandson

If you liked Unforgiven you should definitely get your dad (presumably when your mum of off her box on drugs) to watch The Outlaw Josey Wales with you. It is, in my considered opinion, the most perfect Western ever made. Thematically it is not that different from Unforgiven, but is lacks the undertone of preachiness that contaminates the more recent film.

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@puroandson

There is a very old (I think dated to the early middle ages) English saying that goes “If Doctor Who is not giving 7-year-olds nightmares it is not doing its job”.

I was 7 when Web of Fear was broadcast and it has stayed with me forever. So when this “lost” episode was rediscovered a year or two back, and restored, it took me all of 2.3 nanoseconds to buy it. And, you know what, it is still as scary now as it was then.

 

 

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@bluesqueakpip @mersey

The depression, I suppose, isn’t too surprising given its life changing nature, but the problem back then was our simply not having a clue what Colin’s behaviour meant. It was only really my coming to terms with the black dog that got me to begin to grasp it, 20 year later.

Puro is having the odd lurk, so our mission to give her diabetes must continue.

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@fatmaninabox

Oops, sorry, I got “The Girl Who Died” in there twice.

That’s just Buffy interfering.

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@nerys

I think it is not so much state-of-mind as drug-scrambled-brain 🙂

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On Facebook yesterday the Doctor Who page threw out a “What’s your Favourite Cap Doc moment” thread. You would be amazed at how popular the guitar-riff-on-a-tank scene is.

@sirclockface

It would not especially surprise me (if filming schedules can be sorted) to see Ashildr along for a longer ride, desperate to do penance.

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@thebrainofmoffat

You may be right – it was from memory, but I thought the idea was interesting.

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@all

Just had a note from Melissa. For some reason the silly girl is under the impression that she is not worthy of the love shown here. Personally, I think all the sugar generated will make the inevitable Sudden Onset Diabetes a nice distraction. Practically speaking, her meds are messing with her quite a bit at the moment, not least in her ability to see the keyboard (or, indeed, know what day it is, or where she is).

In about 15BE (Before Email), while doing my Masters, my friend Colin failed to return as expected from the Easter break. We were very concerned and eventually I got a letter describing violent abdominal pain, initially misdiagnosed as appendicitis. A couple of specialists later the correct diagnosis of Crohn’s Disease was reached.

He eventually returned, but after a while it was clear that his behaviour had changed markedly (the details are unimportant). I now understand that he was exhibiting (practically canonical) symptoms of severe clinical depression, but back then then we (me and all of our friends, including his flatmates) simply didn’t understand this, so he did not get the support he needed. For all the dissing the Internet gets, it has at least created space for a corrective that blindness.

Should you wish to learn more about Crohn’s Disease there is an excellent resource on the Crohn’s & Colitis UK website.

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Random thought (from memory)

In Family of Blood the Doctor had a doohickey that gave Joan a look at what life might have been like with John Smith.

Just putting that out there.

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I am minded to agree with @jphamlore (almost) and @ichabod (more so). It wasn’t a lesson about weak women because Hubris (not, in this case, ignorance and stupidity) is gender-neutral. Clara had successfully aped the Doctor on several occasion (with great courage to be sure), but the thing with believing your own publicity is that Hubris’s good pal Nemesis is never very far behind.

It isn’t a biblical story, but altogether more classical storytelling.

I am sure of one thing: Clara’s story is not quite done yet, and suspect another: the Doc knows more than he is letting on (a sort of macro version of his gadabout with Davros). Hmm. Someone mention chaos upthread. The thing with Chaos theory is that it is independent of scale.

( @kharis – puro made a post in the Fox Inn. The love hath flowed.)

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@whisht

#47629 – Post. Of. The. Year. All other entrants give up now.

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