Forum Replies Created
1 December 2015 at 02:19 #48375
@teddybear The skulls are all CapDoc so do not reset, as they are not part of any room. The stool does because it is a part of that room1 December 2015 at 01:37 #48370
@lisa that did give me a chuckle! also reminded me of how large my list of shows I need to catch up on is: Classic Who, The Walking Dead, Breaking Bad, Game Of Thrones, Supernatural, I could go on for ages but I think I’ll stop there.30 November 2015 at 21:07 #48339
@bluesqueakpip I hope to see you on the classic who forums then, I found links to the episodes the other day and I’m midway through the An Unearthly Child serial at the moment, I suspect that I may spend a lot of my time over christmas trying to watch through the 26 series (the shortness of episodes I’m sure will help, but I think I counted 40 odd episodes in series 1!)30 November 2015 at 17:21 #48324
@thebrainofmoffat I would theorize that the regeneration in question is that of Me. CapDoc stated the Hybrid wasn’t Dalek, but at no point did he mention that it was Gallifreyan. Here we have a functionally immortal hybrid of two warrior races, who now probably has access to the TARDIS, and has already started working with “they”, “they” being someon who wanted to put CapDoc in the confession dial, suddenly appearing on Gallifrey should the trailer be believed. In my opinion it’s got to be Me and she will be the first Gallifreyan, and perhaps also the Doctor’s mother.30 November 2015 at 16:57 #48323
Wow, I go away for a day and a half and there’s 3 new pages to read. I see many new faces here so welcome to all newbies.
I’ve been thinking and I think I might understand the seeming discrepancy in rooms returning to the original state. The two that don’t return are the teleport room and the exit room. In reference to the latter, I don’t see it as part of the rest of the building. It has the exit and the non-diamond wall is technically outside. Therefore it is not governed by the rules of the confession dial and any impact made remains. The teleport room I think does return to its original state, it’s just that nothing is changed from it. All changes are just CapDoc disintegrating and the skull remaining, still attached to the machine. The lever always returns to its original spot. The wires don’t because they’re still technically in use until they’re removed from the skull. The dust never leaves, the skulls never leave, so everything being used by one of those two cannot be reverted.29 November 2015 at 07:19 #48169
@jphamlore the question is: Where is the Eye of Hades now? Is it still in Sam Swift? Did Me take it out of him? Does it even still work?29 November 2015 at 05:30 #48159
@geoffers indeed, I posted, went back to the main forum page, and your post was already up!29 November 2015 at 05:23 #48155
@lisa @puroandson yes that has been bugging me as well, trying to work out what happened to the confession dial. I have an idea, though I’m not convinced it’s correct.
We assumed that when CapDoc left the trap street at the end of Raven, it was through teleport, but what if it wasn’t. When you compare it with other teleport bracelets, or vortex manipulators we’ve seen (I’m starting to think they might be linked somehow), the bracelet is never left behind. But it was that time, so why? To get the bracelet on, the TARDIS key was needed. And Mayor Me in no uncertain terms asked for the Confession Dial. So what if that’s where he went – into the version that Me was holding? Goes in, spends millions of years solving the riddle, though that may be only a few seconds passing outside of the dial, once he solves it both he and the confession dial are transported to Gallifrey. It would explain why Me knew that “they” had other ways of procuring CapDoc’s confessions.29 November 2015 at 00:17 #48107
In reference to the Next Time Trailer at the end of the episode, Who should be the first person to turn up but Ashildr.
@phaseshift I am 99% certain you are correct it’s “The Hybrid is Me” not “The hybrid is me”29 November 2015 at 00:10 #48106
Ok wow. I am in awe. So I guess that means Rory is no longer the character to have died the most then, right? My mind can’t actually fathom this episode at the moment I think that I’ll need to sleep on it before I can actually express my love for it coherently. What i will say now though is @phaseshift, you’re a genius.28 November 2015 at 22:59 #48091
Just started watching, 10 seconds in and I’m already thinking The Veil is going to be The Valeyard, this will be a fun 55 minutes I can tell!28 November 2015 at 19:25 #4803328 November 2015 at 15:41 #48020
@puroandson oh I don’t know about me having a great mind, just someone who desperately wants the snake theory to be possible. Enjoy your new phone, I remember how much I played with my first phone when I first got it!27 November 2015 at 18:55 #47991
Anddd bingo! Just after Ashildr/Me permits them entry, when the group are naming Rigsy a murderer, hissing can be heard. we have our snake reference people!27 November 2015 at 18:41 #47989
On a rewatch looking for a serpent (it looks like CapDoc’s shirt had a shark on it) and I just noticed something.maybe just a coincidence, but when CapDoc is telling Rigsy he’s about to die, he isn’t facing Rigsy. He’s facing Clara.26 November 2015 at 02:29 #47894
Oh I’m honoured you thought it was mine, it’s brilliant bonkerising26 November 2015 at 02:27 #4789226 November 2015 at 00:05 #47877
The bonkerising I was about to put over on Raven, then realised relates to a bit we know about Heaven Sent:
Hold on, I’ll try and format it in an easier way so it’s possible to understand, it does kinda get complicated.
-Clara finds out how Missy survived, either tells CapDoc how, or he’s already worked it out
-Me/Ashildr sends CapDoc away to castle using a teleport bracelet
-That pod shown in the next time bit is in reality a teleport pod out of power
-Like in the story CapDoc harnesses power meant to kill him to teleport, by putting sonic glasses in firing line
-Teleported to Gallifrey pre-Day Of The Doctor
-Missy/Master pre-Nethersphere also on Gallifrey
-Hears about CapDoc’s escape, develops idea of teleport bracelet
-Tells Clara how she survived
3 different timestreams, 1 bootstrap paradox26 November 2015 at 00:02 #4787625 November 2015 at 21:27 #47867
@sirclockface @blenkinsopthebrave I just rewatched the start to Familiar and I think I might have something. Yes it’s a different teleport bracelet, and yes CapDoc does not keep his when he leaves the trap street. However, he also uses the Sonic. And there is that pod that looks decidedly like it should be on the Enterprise.
My theory is that we get a bit of a bootstrap paradox. The Veil attacks CapDoc, CapDoc, using the Sonic, harnesses that power to fuel a teleportation pod, arrives in Gallifrey, where Missy pre-S8 is, though he doesn’t know that and it isn’t revealed until S10. Word of how CapDoc survived reaches Missy, she creates teleport bracelet, which gives CapDoc the idea for his escape in Heaven Sent.25 November 2015 at 18:24 #47855
@arbutus are you suggesting something similar to the mini series of specials Tennant had just before regeneration, just as a full series? Because that could be very interesting.25 November 2015 at 18:21 #47854
@sirclockface I hope you’re correct, it would definitely make sense to me if Heaven is the story Missy is on about to Clara in Familiar, but I thought that the teleport bracelet was left behind. I think this calls for a rewatch!25 November 2015 at 15:37 #47833
@lewis97 indeed, thank you for the clip. Is it just me or does he seem rather Valeyard like in that clip?25 November 2015 at 03:45 #47783
@jphamlore agreed, and the choices for casting have been perfect all the way through!25 November 2015 at 03:11 #47781
And in that moment thousands of Stormers started crying into their CDs
(I’m joking of course)25 November 2015 at 03:06 #47780
@jphamlore, you didn’t imagine it, I too remember seeing Rump appear on the imdb page. what do you think it is? A human error, false spoilers, or a very late change to the episode? My bet is on the 2nd tbh.25 November 2015 at 02:40 #47775
@jphamlore time for me to don my shiny hat. The Veil is played by the same person as plays Colony Sarff, and the outfit is pretty similar. could it be not the time lords but in fact Davros and Missy working together to trap CapDoc?25 November 2015 at 02:11 #47772
Well when he’s angry he does have a habit of giving people exactly what they want to punish them, very feasible25 November 2015 at 01:43 #47770
Unless of course, as I’ve seen people suggest, The Doctor IS the hybrid. or maybe it’s a hybrid race he created.24 November 2015 at 18:11 #4775324 November 2015 at 18:03 #4775124 November 2015 at 17:59 #4774824 November 2015 at 17:01 #47735
@nerys the order I’m saying The Doctor experiences events is:
Woman Who Lived
Sleep No More (it’s where this fits I’m still unsure of because of “the worst month of his life”, it might very well be before Invasion)
Face The Raven
Under The Lake
Before The Flood
Girl Who Died24 November 2015 at 16:45 #47733
@nerys oh no it is, but she wasn’t there with Me at anytime, CapDoc had already left her and as far as I remember he doesn’t mention her change of title in that snippet at the end, it’s really just a conclusion to show he hasn’t completely abandoned Clara. Or at least that’s what it and the reference to the trip are to me anyway.24 November 2015 at 16:06 #47730
Right, I think @fatmaninabox is on to something over on the Raven thread (post #47719), so I thought I might as well try and fit that into CapDoc’s arc. I think that now you’ve brought up the retconning, it could turn out to be key.
Episodes we know have to be in order:
That leaves any change over from future CapDoc to present CapDoc in the spaces. Logic would suggest that Apprentice has to be after Raven in his timeline, since the confession dial looks in perfect condition in Raven, but has a chunk out of it Apprentice, and I don’t see any episode that could slot in between them, so lets link those 5 episodes together.
Logic would also suggest the changeover has to happen at a time when Clara isn’t there. Yes we don’t know what happens between episodes, but since it’s a major plot point in this theory you’d expect the change over to happen on screen. That rules out a few more options.
This would make the arc, starting at Raven, look like this:
That’s only two places left: before and after Woman. Now, in Raven there was the mentioning of a me surveillance room. Very Importantly, not an Ashildr surveillance room, a Me surveillance room. The only other episode in which she is referred to as Me is Woman, and we don’t have Clara in it, making CapDoc the only source, and probably meaning it is probably current CapDoc.
Therefore, I theorize that CapDoc’s arc runs from Woman to Girl. This fits in nicely, as it allows for the retconning removing his memory of Ashildr, hence the faint recognition, and it allows for the gradual destruction of the retcon through the episode. In resurrecting her he knows he is sentencing Clara to death, yet he still does it showing acceptance, as does the refusal to meddle with time and give Clara the missing Immortality chip. What’s more, by having the face reveal at the end of his arc, it makes it more poignant and gives it the meaning that I feel many thought it lacked. It is him remembering why he is The Doctor – he saves people, even if they’ve hurt him so badly he can hardly take it.24 November 2015 at 15:42 #47726
@frobisher could be that it changes from future doctor to current doctor when Ashildr changes to Me. He’d have the prior knowledge of her existence through Clara, it’s at a point when Clara isn’t actively travelling with him so there is time for a switch over, and it’s at an important turning point in the series.24 November 2015 at 15:29 #47722
@nerys I have a pretty complex theory over on the spoilers thread (post #47670, about midway down the newest page, can’t miss it It’s a rather long post, though I wouldn’t suggest scrolling far below it) which can fit in to @fatmaninabox‘s theory, though I may have to do a bit of rejiggling of Capdoc’s arc first. Should be fine as a basic explanation at the moment24 November 2015 at 12:46 #47707
@whisht ah yes, that may indeed be it. As for death energy being used to bring Gallifrey back, we’ve already seen something very similar this series. Ashildr/Me was involved in that as well.24 November 2015 at 07:20 #4769524 November 2015 at 04:19 #47689
@blenkinsopthebrave nothing’s too cruel for Moffat, 9 episodes in 6 years can drive anyone mad!24 November 2015 at 03:10 #47684
@countscarlioni I think you’re on to something, after all what’s the name of the last episode?
Something I’ve just realised is that there were no snakes in this episode, or at least not that I saw.24 November 2015 at 02:30 #4768123 November 2015 at 22:16 #47670
I’ve already mentioned my ring narrative theory over on the Sleep thread (#47346), but it doesn’t have anything on Sleep or Raven actually in it so I think I need to try and revise it and improve it slightly:
The series has 5 2-parters, and the turning point of the ring narrative in my opinion come midway through the 3rd one (the Ashildr/Me 2-parter). Thus, depending on whether you view Sleep and Raven as part of the narrative it’s either a 5/5 or 5/7 split. If you accept that split, then here is what the series looks like (Sleep and Raven in italics):
Daleks – Clara is definitely the apprentice to both CapDoc and Missy, who teach her different things, CapDoc and Missy make sure she is never alone. Discovery of Skaro.
Lake/Flood – Clara wants to be more like The Doctor, CapDoc doesn’t like how adventurous she’s become, Clara is forced to step up and be the magician for a little bit due to the lack of CapDoc, CapDoc is in a pod
Girl – Clara steps up and is the magician of her own accord, tries to convince The Doctor to stay
Woman – No Clara, just CapDoc being the sole magician, though Ashildr/Me has grown to be similar to a magician by her own.
Zygons – Clara is brought back by The Doctor after 127 missed calls (shows Clara doesn’t need him to teach her anymore), Clara spends most of the time in a pod, thus CapDoc is left having to find another apprentice in the shape of Osgood.
Sleep – Reverts to CapDoc as sole leader. However, he is not the Magician as he does not fully understand the story, and as a result The Doctor loses.
Raven – Clara is in the role of the Magician, not CapDoc, but is more an amalgamation of what she’s learnt from Missy and CapDoc, and like CapDoc in Sleep does not understand the story properly, loses, and dies as a consequence.
Heaven/Hell – No Clara, CapDoc left without an apprentice or anyone to make an apprentice. Discovery of Gallifrey.
Now obviously there are many themes evident, but I think they can be summed up surprisingly.
Clara’s arc – strictly linear in regards to this series. She starts of as CapDoc’s apprentice, goes off for a little spell where Missy teaches her that hiding your plans helps you win, then is forced to take over from CapDoc in BTF. following on from that she is immediately forced into a situation where she is without CapDoc, and chooses to be the Magician. Capdoc sees the possible implications this could have and leaves her on Earth hoping she will forget how to be the Magician. As soon as he think’s she’s in danger, CapDoc tries to call Clara though, to keep her safe. The point that ultimately causes Clara’s death is in Inversion, when it becomes clear CapDoc has tricked Bonnie. Clara interprets this as confirmation of Missy’s teaching. she also ignores CapDoc losing in Sleep, which means that when given her own companion, she is confident that so long as she follows everything she’s learnt she will win. But by learning incorrectly that hiding your plan works, she sentenced herself to death. And it was in acceptance that she truly became The Doctor.
Time War arc – quite possibly the most important arc of the series, highlighted most by the appearance of Skaro at the start and Gallifrey at the end. This would suggest a proper, uncomplicated ring narrative, but I think it’s more complex than that. It’s more like a linear thread with a single ring to link it all together. If we view this as a 9 episode mini series (no UTL, BTF or Sleep), with a linear storyline it may be easier to understand. In Apprentice we find Skaro and in Familiar we get the prophecy of a hybrid. Plus there is the appearance of Missy, who could quite easily be an agent for the TLs. The next episodes in this miniseries are the Ashildr ones, which show CapDoc creating a hybrid of two warrior races in the Mire and Humans. Then he turns them into an adversary of his. now I think this is a red herring, but it still seems very important because it is Ashildr who brings about the climax of the arc. Next we get the Zygon episodes. Refugees created by the Time War, and CapDoc showing how much he regrets his actions in the Time War by choosing to show forgiveness. Raven is what moves the story on, Ashildr sending CapDoc away using what looks very much like Missy’s teleport bracelet. We know that once CapDoc gets past whatever it is in the place he’s gone Gallifrey is the prize, and it is likely that Clara’s death will have severe consequences for somebody. In short this arc is a linear arc, disguised as a ring narrative.
CapDoc arc – Now this is very interesting. like the Time War arc there is a link at the start and the end (CapDoc ends up alone and starts alone) and it doesn’t look like a true ring narrative. but at the same time it doesn’t look linear. It’s more like a loop than anything, with an exit at the end, but I’m unsure exactly where it loops back on itself. There are a couple of mini loops and bootstrap paradoxes created, namely the creation of Davros and the one formed in BTF. But I also think the confession dial will be one, and for some reason I get the feeling they might not be the only ones.
In retrospect, my initial thought that this series is a ring narrative now seems to be incorrect. There are bits that link the start of the series to the end, but ultimately it isn’t one. Rather it is 2 linear narratives with a 3rd that may very well be a loop narrative.23 November 2015 at 20:12 #47661
I feel like a refresh of my ring narrative theory on the Sleep No More thread may be in order now that we’ve seen Raven, I have that feeling that this weeks events are important somehow. It’ll be up on the Spoiler thread soon.23 November 2015 at 05:20 #47588
@drben see that’s where all the bonkerizing helped: I was so convinced all the rumours were just an elaborate misconception that the fact it wasn’t really surprised me23 November 2015 at 05:07 #47587
Bloody hell! 2 months and I’ve only just stumbled on this thread. This website doesn’t cease to amaze me! Anyhoo, my first memory of Dr Who was 10 years ago, when the reboot happened. my parents remembered it from their youth, wanted to see what the reboot would be like, and I simply wanted to watch TV whilst having my dinner. I remember when it first came back I was attracted to the child friendly monsters: a burping wheelie bin, alien wearing disguises that fart a lot, the kinda stuff kids find amusing. Being only just turned 9 at the time and knowing from for some reason having seen Tom Baker’s regeneration before (don’t ask me why, I’ve no idea, I think it might have been on SyFy and my mum had it on whilst cooking). Going off on a tangent now. What I’m trying to say is that I was unaffected by Eccleston’s regeneration, which may also have been partially because I hadn’t grown attached to him. That didn’t happen until a few years when watch started showing AG Who repeats.
I feel like Tennant was definitely the first Doctor I fell in love with. Everything about him was just cool personified, and it was midway through his first series that my father died, so he kind of became my role model. My stand out memories of the Tennant era are cliche, but they’re cliche because those episodes are so well known. The beach scene in Doomsday, the entirety of Blink, his exit. actually I say that but I also vividly remember his conversation with Martha at the end of Gridlock about Gallifrey and Rose, and THAT scene in Fires Of Pompeii. Also Tennant had the only DW story to ever scare me. even now I get anxious watching the Vashta Nerada episodes and I just cannot watch the cliffhanger at the end of Silence In The Library, seeing Donna’s face on that information node gave nightmares for weeks! And yet it’s quite possibly my favourite story because it’s so well written.
Smith was brilliant, but he took me a few episodes to warm to. When he did I loved him, but never to the same extent as his predecessors. And when you contrast him with Capaldi there’s no contest. Capaldi is most definitely going to be “My Doctor”. A more mature Doctor was exactly what I needed to snap me out of puberty and Capaldi has most definitely delivered, whilst still being able to bring out his youthful side. I think the best way for me to show how he is different is this: Eccleston, Tennant and Smith were brilliant interpretations of The Doctor. Capaldi IS The Doctor, and that speech in The Zygon Inversion is what confirmed it for me.23 November 2015 at 00:04 #47570
I don’t normally come on to this thread, but I think this warrants an exception. Like @sirclockface, I’ve only been here since the start of this series. But you’ve made me feel right at home here. Encouraging me whenever I started bonkerising, providing theories of your own, just generally being so kind and welcoming. I hope you come back, but if not, it has been a privilege of mine getting to know you.
All the best for the future,
Bendubz11 (Ben)22 November 2015 at 23:43 #47566
@lisa, what like in a similar way to how the rip in the universe was leaking in S4?22 November 2015 at 23:41 #47565
@aclevername I’ve just noticed you haven’t been welcomed yet! So welcome, you probably already know how awesome this forum is if you’ve been a long time lurker, but I will tell you nevertheless. It’s awesome. and as I said to @akhaten earlier, it’s always nice seeing new faces, it was only at the start of this series that I was in your shoes!22 November 2015 at 22:51 #47559
@juniperfish I can’t take claim for the actual noticing of the Hanged Man, that has to go to Whisht (obviously not tagging because it’s on the spoiler thread). All I did was suggest that the reward for the sacrifice is Gallifrey, and it is Clara’s death that gives CapDoc the anger needed to face what i suspect is the Valeyard.