[janetteB @replies]

nite @lisa. I agree with you and @idiotsavon on most points. I think the reason that Sci Fi etc doesn’t get people “talking over the back fence” is because it is still a niche interest. Dr Who certainly generates plenty of discussion amongst its fans and stories such as “Vincent” showed that it can and does touch on “real world” issues and plays to that. More recently the BBC promoted its “Do We Really Need the Moon” doco in the light of Kill the Moon. @thommck has mentioned discussing the issues addressed within an episode with his sons so I think the reason that Sci fi doesn’t make as much of an impact as Soaps do is simply down to viewing numbers and also, it is not necessarily addressing current issues as much as underlying trends. Being aware of those underlying trends, ie the corporate destruction of the natural world as addressed in The Green Death might well encourage people to be more active about conservation issues in general. I would say the two “genres” usually operate at different levels, both of which are important.

I think the Doctor is still the hero even though he often appears to be a little “darker”. He sometimes appears callous but that is because he is focussed upon saving those whom he can save. I am happy with the companion not being the role model hero all the time because it is the companion who must fill the “Character development” requirement. The Doctor cannot really change much. He, despite his various modifications with each regeneration, a fixed character. Clara is not acting well but I hope that this will be dealt with. I am certain it will. Right now she is the textbook tragic hero with her fatal flaw.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@idiotsavon

Do you think I’m being unfair if I say that anything fantastical is automatically distant from real life and therefore less powerful in a political sense?

Simply Yes. 🙂 Well written fantasy/sci fi could made a stronger statement about real life than stories set in “real life”. For instance I would argue that shows like “Midsummer Murders” say almost nothing about real life. Reality TV which is supposedly “real life” has nothing at all to say about real life. Dr Who has occasionally addressed real life issues for instance in BG Who ‘The Green DEath and “The Sunmakers” both made statments about modern day Britain. There have been numerous “reflections” in AG Who of real life especially during the RTD years. Any good story be it Sci Fi, Fantasy, contemporary, historical, Social Realism, Magic Realism, Romantic or whatever, reflects real life. Being distant from real life can often give the writer more power to deal with issues and to explore the implications of those issues. Writers can point out potential concequences in a fictional reality that have not yet happened for instance, and personally I think fictional and fantastical settings give a story more impact.

Personally I think Dr Who is at its best when it is referencing some aspect of reality be it through human drama or political or social allegory. And, just to dodge the ire of the topic dalek, the consequences of Clara’s lying need to be explored. In fact I was never entirely comfortable with the “Doctor lies” meme, as though his lying was a good thing.

Really enjoying this discussion BTW. @everyone making such excellent points, almost has the feel of sitting about a table in a pub with a great group of people.( just lacking the wine/beer/cider and crisps.)

Cheers

Janette

 

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[janetteB @replies]

@jimthefish I agree wholeheartedly with the above post but for the final point about Buffy the Vampire Slayer being the first genre TV series to consider character development might add something to the story. While ignoring such fine British products as Blake’s Seven I would suggest that B.5 beat Buffy to that honour by a few years. (And one day I will do a blog on B.5 and what it has contributed to Dr Who in terms of story writing etc. I am mulling over it but have not been sufficiently fortified with reds to actually put pen to paper.)

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@scaryb. You said just what I was about  to. I am getting really tired of the misuse of the term “soap opera” to apply to any form of human centric drama. Adding a little human complexity to the script does not turn a story into a soap opera and as @jimthefish pointed out, there can be good soap opera. It is not a term of abuse just a form of drama series. I would classify Star Trek for instance as soap as it was ongoing tv series whose main aim was to keep bums on sofas for an hour and inject as much advertising as possible. There was very little depth or consistency of character. (Ok now I am dodging the rotten tomatoes being hurled at me for attacking a fan fave’)

Character development is one essential ingredient that breaks the common “soap opera” mould and Dr Who ticks that box. @wordmuse I agree with much of your post but I don’t see how Clara lying turns the script to soap opera. Yes she did lie at the end. She has been lying to both Danny and the Doctor all series and I have found that instances cringeworthy. In Listen I was saying aloud, “no Clara don’t say it.” I felt like shaking her because she is digging her own hole. People do lie, even honest people can fall into the trap that Clara is falling into and it is not a good or healthy place to be.

I think the trajectory Clara is on is definitely downward. She is heading for trouble and I really looking forward to seeing where things will lead because gone are the days when the companion was there simply to ask questions and get into trouble and on occasion rescue the Doctor then be hastily written out when the actor quit. That was actually far more “soap opera.” We are now seeing how travelling with the Doctor might impact upon an “ordinary” human life and I think it is a very interesting concept indeed to explore.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

Excellent episode. Lots to like in this one. It really has been an excellent series this year. I agree with @blenkinsopthebrave in that it seems to be very much a stand alone while running with the general themes of the series. Compliments must go to the writing team and to Moffat for maintaining those thematic elements through the various episodes.

This story had lots of lovely lines and genre nods as pointed out by @phileasf Gus/eddy and the hard light halograms brought a smile to this face. So if hard light halograms are now “a thing’ in Dr Who that opens up numerous bonkers theorising possibilities. Danny and Orson as holograms??

@rob I liked your explanation (post33449) for why the Mummy picks off the most vulnerable first.

Am I the only person who does not dislike Danny? He certainly suffered from PTSD and a severe case of Foot in Mouth but he is hardly evil and one cannot help but feel sorry for him in his position re’ Clara. Like Rory he feels as though he is second best because frankly who could compete with the Doctor. What Danny is grappling to understand is that her relationship with the Doctor is not romantic. Is there more to Danny though than simply a war damanged, insecure lover? I certainly hope so but I do not think he is the master. (which given my propensity to be wrong almost certainly means he is.)

I agree with @TheKryniodMan re Clara lying at the end. I disliked it and I think it bodes ill for Clara and Danny. I think that lie will catch up with her and cause trouble down the tracks. Clara has clearly become addicted to the dangerous life of the time traveller. That I fear will lead to tragedy.

Capaldi has really settled into the role now. He seems a lot more confident than at first and he has jelly babies!!! Clara has developed very interestingly as a character this series, but as stated above, I fear she is headed for a fall.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

Some0ne mentioned elsewhere that @wolfweed is AWOL at the moment. I hope all is OK with our resident lupine-garden pest. 🙂

cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@idiotsavon Brain Blessed and huskies!!! What an excellent combination. And for my random Dr Who reference just to keep vaguely on topic, it is more than time that B.B. had another Dr Who cameo. (Huskies are very welcome too.)

Summer here. We don’t get such niceties as spring and autumn. One week one is freezing in boots and layers of cloths and next week it’s out with the block out and bathers.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@idiotsavon thanks for the link. I just wish it had audio. Love Brain Blessed’s voice. I am going to have to watch Tom Jones now. I have had it for ages but I loved the book so much I have always feared that the tv adaptation would not live up to expectations.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@idiotsavon So we finally get to know what the name means. Not a Blake’s 7 reference after all. 😉 A very warm, though belated, welcome to the forum. I do enjoy your posts.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

The concept of the space dragon is so utterly bonkers it would certainly be interesting to see a future writer take the idea and develop it into something plausible. A life form living in vacuum would be so totally alien to anything we could understand that it throws up all sort of interesting possibilities.  We are encountering lots of new life forms this  series but most seem to be one story only. I think the dragon is the least likely to ever reappear but perhaps the most promising. Maybe it is a good subject for some fan fic. Imagine a space ship encountering one of those out in space. Whoops. Just got taken out by a feather!!

Also interesting to note, and purely random I am sure, but thus far  this series we have found out that Robin Hood, Hollywood style, was real and there are dragons.

Cheers

Janette

 

[janetteB @replies]

@serahni I would disagree that the Doctor has lost his nerve.  He was unable to made the decision because he recognised that it was not his right to do so. His choice was to save the creature but in doing so he would put the entire population of earth in jeopardy. He is not brutally practicle but pragmatic. It is often more a case of “Don’t waste time griving over someone who you can’t save when those you can save need you.” This Doctor just doesn’t always wear his hearts on his sleave as eleven and ten did which is why Clara is getting so angry with him but the hearts are still there. He often seems distracted, as though his mind is focussed on another, bigger, problem, something yet to be revealed maybe involving the blackboard calculations and the books which he places so deliberately on the stairs.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

Have just watched the egg turn red. There is light cloud making it darker but still very impressive. Son is speculating on how much more impressive it would be to be on the moon watching the “earth rise”.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@mudlark, that was an excellent explanation of the science behind the moon egg. Well done. I was especially pleased with your theory that the second “moon” was a cloned egg and I had thought there were no cloning references in this episode. (I am still suspicious that Orson is a clone of Danny or that they are both clones hence the later’s lack of parents.) Danny’s “bad day” was almost certainly a throw away line. I know there no shortage of “bad days” in a teacher’s working life however that hasn’t stopped me wondering just what happened and if there is more to that than simply badly behaved students. It was implied that it was an especially bad “bad day”.

I neglected to note who it was that spotted the miniaturisation reference, ie in this story the humans are the miniatures in comparison to the moon-dragon so we do have a possible cloning reference and a miniaturisation reference.

@Purofilion I hope the coffee has had the desired effect even if it is only instant. (I am suffering instant too, being too lazy to grind the beans etc. I leave that to “he is is at work”.)

Talked the Pres’ of the local fan society last night. He was rather ambilivent about this series. He said that the reaction from the fan group is very mixed. Other friends however were really enthused about the stories thus far. There was no discussion of bonkers theories though as Dr Who was “off topic”.

Cheers

Janette

 

[janetteB @replies]

@phileasf  I had forgotten that David’s mother’s name was Clara. I have not thought much about the Copperfield reference yet but I am certain that it was chosen for a reason. I doubt that there will be another pregnant assisant story after that was covered with Amy however. Must ponder this some more. I like your reasoning re’ the grey areas. I guess wherever there is a choice the future is “grey” and even though the Doctor has visited one future that might well cease to exist in which case nothing is fixed.

Cheers

Janette

 

[janetteB @replies]

@lisa I felt that in Deep Breath he always intended to return to Clara. He wasn’t abandoning her, just leaving her to cope while he found a solution to the problem. The frustrating thing is that he does not explain or “apologise” leaving Clara and the audience unsure as to his intentions. S.M. loves to make the audience “do the work” which I applaud though it does not work for everyone. He also leaves many things open to interpretation so there is no clear correct reading of things. I agree with you that he is asking a lot of Clara in this series, maybe because he knows something about the future or maybe just because in this regeneration he expects more of humans and understands less. It will certainly be interesting to see how this plays out.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

I agree the Doctor wasn’t wrong in leaving Clara and the other two humans to make the decision about their own planet’s future though many fans do and so maybe it does require some explanation. I was thinking of the Courtney issue when I said that. He did not apologise for causing Courtney issues or what he said about her being “ordinary”. He did not explain that “ordinary” is a brilliant thing to be, however he does endeavour to made amends. Clara, it seems, still needs something more from him. She doesn’t understand why he left her to make the decision. To be fair explaining one’s motives to someone who is enraged is generally pointless however I doubt he will discuss it with her later when she is calm either, which again is perhaps more of a problem with portions of the audience who expect the Doctor to be the god like hero who fixes everything. My feeling was that the Doctor is faced with a moral dilemma which he feels unfustified in solving. It isn’t his planet, they aren’t his people that his choice would put at risk. He is acknowledging the limitations of his moral authority. He just doesn’t express it well. Yes the “taking of the training wheels” was patronising and unjustified and having been faced with a planet destorying choice, Clara was understandably angry and over emotional.

Given the time in which the decision had to be made asking the entire planet to turn on or off lights would not be possible however aknowledging that the whole planet was not able to vote would have added weight to Clara’s final decision to ignore the result of her request. The question was asked when she sought someone else to take responsibilty for the decision for her. In the end she accepts that responsibility. The Doctor wanted and expected that of her but he did put her in one hell of a place.

Cheers

Janette

 

 

[janetteB @replies]

@arbutus

As @bluesqueakpip’s list suggests, we all have our own areas of touchiness. For some of us, it’s “For heaven’s sake get the science right!” For some of us it’s historical anachronisms, for some of us it’s “believable” character behaviour, and so on. Fair enough, actually.

Well said. This episode is about a moral dilemma which lies at the heart of Dr Who and usually is ignored. In many episodes one life must be sacrificed in order to save many. When convenient for the story the issue is ignored. AG Who is far less guilty on this score than BG Who. So for me, the silly science was less obtrusive than it is to a scientist. Likewise the historical inaccuracy of Robot of Sherwood bothered me more but I was able to overlook it because I have a soft spot for the equally anachronistic Erol Flynn movie. This is certainly history as drawn from Amy’s memories. I was hoping for an explanation of the fictional nature of history which seems to prevail in this series. I don’t think that is going to happen.

@jimthefish Good to have you swimming about in the discussion again.

I think the Courtney as Mels theory is knocked on the head by the inference that she grows up to be come the President of the United States or did I mishear that? I was very tired last night due to squabbling cockies outside the tent. (and they were much louder and ruder than those in the video probably because they were in the tree overhead, no doubt arguing over whether the moon really is an egg and if so what kind of bird laid it.) 🙂 I don’t think Courtney is set to become a full time companion simply for logistical reasons. Younger cast members require much more effort from a production view point. I am happy for her to be an occasional traveller as I thought she really did well in this episode and is showing some promise.

I too hope to see Danny in the Tardis but I have a feeling it might be without Clara because I have a sneaking suspicion, maybe triggered by all the mystery surrounding her continued tenure in the Tardis that something nasty is about to happen to her and he and the Doctor might have to team up to go on the rescue.

I think the one things that this Doctor has to learn is to say “sorry. Yes I was wrong” even though he begins is regen’ by remarking on past mistakes.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@badwulf, Racous birds which screech really early in the morning.

@purofilion The holiday was great thanks and just to keep it on topic we did not see any spiders, but lots of skippies and a leech which feasted on our friend’s ankle and we did indeed hear the “ooooo-eh bird”.

And before a mod gives me a Clara-slap for going off topic, I will turn this conversation back to Who. Having visited Mars and now the Moon, it is surely time the Doctor made his way back down to Oz to deal with cockies, skippies and ooooo-eh birds and our very own version of black and red spiders. I did think the spiders were quite scary, and I will repeat the point made earlier by @serahni. I think the Doctor is up to something which will redeem him. He is not beng callous or uncaring though as little clumsy when dealing with humans.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

Oh two more random things, Tonight’s literary reference was to David Copperfield, doubt that signifies anything and the spider in the crack reminded me of the Shadows in B.5, again signifying nothing. I wondered why he was placing the books on the steps inside the Tardis at the end. He appeared to be looking for something.

@Purofilion, hope you are feeling better soon.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

Have just got home after a six hour drive and watched “Kill the Moon.” I really enjoyed it, maybe because I am so tired, having been woken by squabling Cockies at the ungodly hour of 7.30 this morning or 8.30 as it turned out to be. Yes I think the replacement moon at the end was a little too “and they all lived happily ever after”, but then we had Clara’s outburst which left the end feeling like a good old fashioned cliff hanger. Will she rejoin the Doctor or not? Like @serahni I got the feeling that the Doctor knows stuff which he isn’t saying and his behavi0ur is not nearly as bad as it appears. There is something in his expression which suggests that he is holding back something and it is not because of a lack of compassion. Rather the reverse. Anyway too tired to ponder much more tonight. Will rewatch tomorrow when more awake.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@badwolf. Please what story is that image above from.  That looks like the White Man who gave me nightmares for years as a child. I am assuming that it is from a Troughten era story.

@mudlark, I have just time to agree that the “blitzer” could be scary were it intended to be scary and I think it does have potential.

Am afraid have run out to time to read/comment on any more of the fine work done by the “night shift.” The clock is tick tocking and the family are waiting. I must away.. I can see I am going to have a lot to catch up on when I return on Sunday night. 🙂

Cheers

Janette

 

[janetteB @replies]

And in the end: someone with bookshelves in the TARDIS control room is always rated awesome in my eyes!

@flirtingdinosaur And anyone who says that rates as awesome in my eyes. It was about time Doctor Who (the series) promoted the value and joy of reading.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

Our middle son lost interest for a while, partly I suspect because none of his friends were fans and it wasn’t cool. Now that one of his best friends is a fan it is cool enough to have Who pictures on school books and the application of Jammy Dodgers during viewing helps. He is probably less enthusiastic than the rest of the family but there is a little bit of “second son” syndrome there too. I am glad to hear that the recalcitrant took up his place on the sofa one again @thommck

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

Thanks for the link @serahni (Hope I got that right this time.) Interesting to note that Lawrence Miles was an editor. There is a bit of history there between him and S.M. if I recall correctly.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

I suspect the thawing of relations between Doctor and Danny is going to be very much a theme of the rest of the series.

@Purofilion I agree re’ Capaldi’s take on the Doctor. The more I watch The Caretaker the more I sense that warmth hidden under the crusty exterior. He is certainly more like the first Doctor but all the early doctors up until Four had moments of irascibility. Re-watching the Baker stories it often seems as though he has very little compassion or empathy for mere humans and he can be quite arrogant. Nothing in Capaldi’s take on the character is new, it just seems that with each new regeneration certain aspects of the Doctor’s character are more pronounced than others. It is the quantity of the ingredient, not the essentials ingredients that change. “In essentials, I believe, he is very much what he ever was.” (I do love P&P)

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

I re-watched again this morning and between clearing out and packing the car for hols tomorrow have been reading through the night, and morning shifts contributions.

Firstly on rewatch I paid particular attention to Clara’s reflection in the window. We first the “dark Clara” reflection when Danny asks why she goes off with the Doctor and then when she replies possibly indicating a dark motive or suggestive of a dark outcome.

I feel that his personal insults are in part to reinforce the “I am not your boyfriend” line. He is clearly in denial about the fact that in his previous regeneration he did fancy her, yet he is flattered when he thinks she had fallen for his previous regeneration look alike. The Doctor shows himself to be very posessive of Clara and I wondered if he was deliberately luring the monster to the school so as to have an excuse to spy on her. He does spy on Clara and Danny spies on him. Lies and deciets underly this story yet it is about faith, Clara must have faith in the Doctor and Danny must have faith in Clara.

@handles good point re’ Clara as the caretaker of the Doctor. She is also Danny’s caretaker. When she helps him from the stage he is like a damaged child. There is a lot of baggage there methinks and not a chip on the shoulder but the full tree trunk.

@idiotsavon Loved the P &P call. How could I have missed the Elizabeth/Darcy, Doctor/Danny reflection. Pride and prejudice certainly underlie their relationship.

@arbutus I suspect the Doctor mostly ignores Danny’s urging to evacuate because it is Danny suggesting it. He wants to prove to Clara that he is the one in control and DAnny is superflous. The Doctor is being quite childish, but he always had that tendency. Also I have to say the new theme is growing on me. I meant to mention this last week but forgot. I like it now much more than I did.

@sarahni I also dreamt about Dr Who last night. Something to do with Clara and Danny and I had a brilliant idea but of course, woke this morning and only remembered what I had forgotten.

@Purofilion Good to have you back. Were you visiting the same fishpeople as the Doctor and Clara? You mention Danny rearranging the gizmos. I could not work out what he was up to there. Why would he do that?

Cheers

Janette

 

 

[janetteB @replies]

That is a good point @bluesqueakpip re’ Clara being a liar. There were times in the episode where I wanted to shake her and really wondered why Danny was still about at the end. He is very forgiving. Maybe too forgiving. I don’t think it requires any particulary mind reading ability on Danny’s part to tell when she is lying however. It is usually very transparent.

The reflection in the mirror was very dark, a light and dark Clara?  Did Clara bring something of the G.I. out of the time stream with her? Perhaps that is what is lurking within her, like a sleeper personality.

Cheers

Janette

 

[janetteB @replies]

No. I was not so clever. I put up the medieval story about Orson and Valentine which I thought might have some relevance. Orson is a name with many possible meanings and I suspect that Moffat is aware of them all.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

My impression of Moffat is that he is very attentive to detail so I would expect he would get someone to do their homework on the military detail. Nothing about Danny seems to quite add up.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

Whew. Only half the day to catch up up all the comments. By the time we had rewatched last night I was too tired to comment. I would give this episode and 8/10 but then, I am a harsh marker. I really enjoyed it as did the family who demanded an immediate rewatch. I have lots of comments but I think most of what I wanted to say has been covered. (I made notes while reading through so here goes.)

@whisht I agreed with you re’ Danny’s “thing” but I think @arbutus might have explained that, he wanted to spy on the Doctor. Thing myster solved.

I found the duality of Clara’s reflection interesting, one light, one dark. I thought the Teacher the Doctor referred to might be Barbara.

@pedant DR as Tony Benn, nice.

I heard Otter which immediately evoked images of the Doctor swimming about in a dam for a month. He does seem to like water.

I wondered if the withered hand was the pc’s or a mannequins. I suspect it was the later.

@bluesqueakpip I agree re’ Danny. He is definitely bit of a mystery man which for some reason reminds me of Our Mutual Friend. (Need some time to develop a OMF theory now.) I still harbour the idea that Orson and Danny are clones or twins scattered in time, hence the orphanage. As as to DAnny’s reference to “family business”, I think our Danny has some secrets of his own.

@scaryb I agree ‘re that the “nethersphere” is not religious. I still think that Missy is not motivated by “good”.

I like the suggestion, (and I forgot to note the author so apologies) that she is a Time Lord, a renegade time lady trying to steal “souls” to somehow bring Gallifrey back through the crack maybe.

I do hope that Danny does become a Tardis traveller. I think however he has “red shirt” in big flashing letters written all over him.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@purofilion Happy Holidays. We have all our teacher/neighbours over tonight to raise a glass or two to celebrate end of term. I was thinking of you in the bottlo and I bought a Jacobs Creek. I hope your supply is soon replenished.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@flirtingdinosaur good to have you back.

There have been numerous references to the Doctor having family in AG who but none as far as I am aware, other than the presence of a granddaughter in BG who. I think that family and backstory were not really of interest in the past. The reason Susan was written in as the Granddaughter was early sixties morality. It was thought too riske to have an old man travelling with a young woman in a confines of a blue box. There was much debate among fans as to whether Susan was indeed his granddaughter or if “Grandfather” was just a curtesy title. Plenty of fans seemed to want the Doctor to be an asexual being, who was “above” all that family nonsense. AG Who writers have established that the Doctor did have a family implying that Susan was indeed his granddaughter. The Doctor alluded to having had children more than once before he met River which also suggests that she was not the partner in that family, though it is entirely possible that there were offspring of their relationship. Now that would really, really upset some of the die hard fans. How could Moffat resist??

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

Jenny also appears to have the ability to regenerate so that implies that it is genetic. All in all I think that the rules of regeneration are not yet fully established.

I would not want Susan to return as a companion but would like the Doctor to encounter her, to resolve her story and that could certainly involve a regeneration though I agree Carol Ann Ford would be required to introduce the character.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@bluesqueakpip Agreed. Romana and Jenny are also characters with the potential to return but I think we are more interested in Susan because she is linked to the Doctor and because she was with him in the beginning and as you say, most keen fans watch the first episode, even if they don’t follow through with the rest of the BG stories.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@Purofilion I agree that Jenny is not likely to return in the near future. Moffat did imply that he did not want the Character saved because he had plans for her but because she was a narrative “opportunity” for future writers. Jenny, when and if, she does return may well be in another regeneratio and, hopefully, older and wiser. Jenny’s ability to regenerate however implies that it is a genetic trait rather than a time lord gift which means Susan would also have the ability to regenerate and so would outlive David and potentially be looking for a means of returning to the Doctor and Gallifrey. Of course it is still very much in the power of the show runner to determine just what the rules of regeneration are at this stage. 50 years and still so many unanswered questions…

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

The character of Susan is a narrative gold mine. We were told so little about her and all those unknowns, ie can she regenerate, who were her parents, why did they leave Gallifrey, what becomes of her, are all waiting to be explored. For someone as detail, obsessed as Moffat then I am certain that he has often thought of Susan. Another theme of Time Heist, is family. Psi has lost his memory of those who cared for him and of his family. The creature is being manipulated through family affection, Saibra is alone, without family like the Doctor though I must he is definitely taking on the Grandfather role with Clara which gives @pedant‘s suggestion some weight but there is still that Christmas Day snog which would indicate no close relationship between them. There do seem to be a lot of missing parents, Clara’s mother, Danny Pink’s parents. @bluesqueakpip. It occurred to me too that Courtney might be Susan.

I rewatched Time Heist this morning and thought of several things to say but after then watching an entire First Scottish Doctor story with a sniffly teenager I have forgotten. I will have to rewatch tomorrow and make notes.

@phaseshift. The Rogue’s Gallery was excellent. At times the Doctor needs the help of friendly rogues because they can commit deeds that he can’t. Another one who comes to mind is the big game hunter in Dinosaurs on a Spaceship.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

On the other hand it might be Missy who is doing the point of death teleporting unknown to the Doctor, and the Doctor’s use of Teleport devices to save Psi and Saibra is a huge Moffatish clue, rather like the tesselector in “Let’s Kill Hitler.” It maybe not necessarily be the same technology and certainly not the same motivation but the Doctor’s use of the device indicates that they are about. Maybe future Doctor gets hold of the teleporters from Missy as we have never seen him use them before or maybe he just popped into the “Teleporter shop” on Planet xxyz between receiving the memory wipe and setting up the briefcases in the vault.

If Moffat does not finally solve the riddle of “the Woman in the Shop” I will never forgive him. Ever!

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@phileasf I like you idea that it is the Doctor that is rescuing people on the point of death. It ties into the “why that face’ question. The Doctor is now wearing the face of someone he once saved from imminent death. It would be very like Moffat to derive inspiration from circumstance. If it is the case that he is saving people I doubt very much that he currently realises it though I also found his reaction when Psi and Saibra reveal themselves to be rather strange. I do think it will be an intervention from the future. Missy’s magical garden might be a kind of interdimensional holding place. They have “died” in one reality, and like the Doctor, cannot appear to live so they are removed to another dimension, a real place but “not of this world”.

I feel that the Doctor is too focussed on the living to spare time for the dead. It is callous, in a way, but not uncaring. He is simply devoting to energy to those he can save.

The architect reminded me a little of ‘The Curse of Fatal Death.” Moffat has reused those ideas many times. (I am not complaining. They were excellent ideas.)

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

I don’t see Ian in that image either but I have fingers crossed that I am wrong.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@PhineasF  I have to disagree with you about the Doctor here. He sets things up so that the “employees” will be saved. He plants the teleporter devices for them and the how intent of the mission is to save the two trapped aliens. I think here the Doctor really shows just how much he does care.

@DESD1 having just read Guardian comments I was surprised by just how w ell received this episode was by the fans. This series is providing something for everyone. There have been a variety of episodes, all strong in their own way but not all to everyone’s tastes. This was probably my least favourite, thus far. (I still enjoyed it and my family really liked it.)  Welcome too.:-)

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

I agree with @bluesqueakpip re’ this episode. It was workmanlike and I too paused to make coffee half way through. Interesting point ‘re Clara’s guilt.

@scaryb. Yes Cloning again. I wonder if cloning is significant to this series. It is possible that Orson was a Danny clone, without the memories. LIkewise the teleporters indicate one way the “sacrficed” get to Missy’s though we did see a body in the first episode so with the robot/man, only part at least of him was teleported, the human or robot part maybe.

The mention of the woman in the shop was for me one of the highlights. I do want to find out who she is.

Lastly the teller and his partner walking off into their “promised land” had a very definite “Adam and Eve” feel to it.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

I can only echo what others have said. @jimthefish you are one of the forum family. Please come back.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@pufferfish That was an excellent post. There were some very quoteable lines in there.

@Purofilion there are times I question the wisdom of compulsory voting, (Such as last September) but I remind myself that for democracy to work the voting public must be well informed. The problem is not with how we determine who votes but how little they know about whom they are voting for.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@rob Doctor 11 loves Jammy Dodgers, Doctor 12 is a coffee drinker so it sounds like story arc to me…

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@idiotsavon one thing I suspect that Moffat never does is throw an arrow at a list of baby names. The ambiguity of Gretchen’s final destination would seem to echo the mystery surrounding where Gretchen Carlisle ends up.

Just sitting down to respond, but my dog has other ideas. Very quickly though: Unlike Goethe’s world, the Whoniverse cannot and will never offer an unambiguous position as far as metaphysics is concerned. Goethe’s world has a God, a heaven and a hell. Dr Who has an eternally vast universe ruled by laws of (all be it wibbly wobbly) time and (if you ask a physicist nonsensey-wonsensey) science. Personally I think that Heaven/The Promised Land/The Nether Region is a very real physical place.

Well said.

@arbutus

Because, frankly, people in general confer too much meaning on pressed shirts that really, just isn’t there.

Well said too.

@whisht

Now, some of us are better at finding the oblique references, but others just enjoy making up shit and making the words fit the crossword.

When I read that I thought, “oh dear, I am one of the later”. However I am constantly crossing out my theories as I see they don’t quite fit so my crossword is covered in layers of ink and lines so there is almost nothing left by the end but a failed attempt at modern art. But is is all good fun.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

Have watched the news with interest these past few days and really enjoyed the discussion on here. Were I living in Scotland, (have the odd Scottish ancestor), then I think I too would have been conflicted as to how best to vote. I hope that Westminster has had a sufficient shock to now give Scotland and Wales a little more respect and autonomy.

@arbutus

But, like @purofilion and @janetteb, I live in a small and usually inoffensive country

I am afraid that is rapidly becoming less true of Australia.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

Nice that Michael Troughton gets a turn to be in Dr Who. I have not seen him since Testament of Youth in the early 80s, coincidentally in which Willian Russell (Ian Chesterton) also appeared.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

If Orson was being “time shot” into next week then why would he need so much baggage? He not only has a very hefty, well filled bag, but all the washing left hanging about the capsule. He looks to me as though he has more than a week’s allowance of baggage to time travel forward one week. Something is rotten in the state of the time shot capsule me thinks or is it just that I am a very light traveller and don’t understand how other humans operate..:-)

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

Welcome @drben. I see you already have your bonkers theorising hat on.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@Handles invading and bombing other countries does not equate to a good world knowledge despite the old joke, “Why did god invent war, answer, so Amercians could learn Geography.”

I have not been to the U.S. but having met many United Staters on my travels, including sitting in University lecture theatres with about fifty U.S. students and ending up being the person lectured too becuase I was clearly showing interest and engagement with the subject, I would second @Purofilion’s words above. In the years I have been on forums I have “met” some wonderful people from the U.S. and I despise generalisations but it is clear that the U.S. education system does not encourage awareness of the world beyond the U.S. borders.

Sorry @craig for this off topic post. Please feel free to remove it.

Cheers

Janette

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