[janetteB @replies]

Thanks for the link @danmartin. I am happy to hear that possibly/likely? Clara is returning though it does mean that her story arc may not be resolved this Christmas. It also raises the possibilty that Orson will become a Tardis companion which I have been suggesting for some time. (but then if I have suggested the possibilty it certainly won’t happen because I am always wrong.)

@purofilion Happy 13th Birthday to Boy Ilion.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@purofilion I hope you safely weathered the storm.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

To echo @blenkinsopthebrave Dream Crabs? and more importantly, nice to have you about again @wolfweed.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@lisa Thank-you for putting up that link. Very enjoyable interview. I think a few parents on this forum will be relieved to hear S.M.s reassurance ‘re Santa/Father Christmas/Nick Frost.

Re’ the foot twitching I noted that by the end J.C. had stopped and M.G had started .Must have been catching.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@Stormaddeddon Yes indeed. I had forgotten. We still have one packet of jammy dodgers left but I am saving them up for Christmas just in case they have vanished off the shelves by then.

Happy Who Day @all.

Cheers

Janette

 

[janetteB @replies]

@Barbara Lefty welcome to the forum. You will enjoy it here and how wonderful to have all of AG Who to discover.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@arbutus totally off topic but your story about the Canadian opera reminded me of a similiar experience . I also returned to Uni after a very long break and had a tendency to forget that I was older than the other students, until when, in second year English, I stated that Romeo was just a typical immature nineteen year old. There was a stunned silence then a friend laughed and I realised that I was in a room full of nineteen year olds. That particular friend now agrees with me but she still laughs about it.

And back to Who, I forgot to mention the one thing that I really dislike about the series as a whole, the opening music. After watching one episode with my son we fast forwarded through the opening titles from then on.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@bluesqueakpip

You only have to look at the Sixth Doctor to realise how badly wrong JNT’s lack of casting sense could go

Indeed so. I thought the acting overall in this story a massive improvement to that in the C.B. story we watched last.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

I must confess to watching Curse of Fenric a couple of months ago when my youngest was home sick. I was surprised by just how good it is. I have only seen one other McCoy story in its entirety. I did not see them when they originally screened. It was a pleasure to re-watch the first episode this week. (If I hadn’t seen the entire story I don’t think I could watch it the British way, one episode a week. I would be far too impatient having been spoilt by the ABC’s weeknight screenings.)It is an interesting story which moves along at a good pace.

I did find some things about the episode confusing. Why does the Doctor show up there and then? He seems to have a reason for being there that is not explained. Maybe that was established in the previous story? The choice of location is clearly not random. He knows just where they are and Ace is dressed accordingly. Clearly no problems with the Tardis navigation. I am also confused by the Russians who are hardly acting like allies.

Viking mythology is an interesting subject for Dr Who to draw on. One of my favourite books when I was a kid involved a modern archaelogist travelling to Iceland where members of his team encounter an ancient Viking curses leading to a timey wimey trip to Vinland with Eric the Red. There is also a rather dark novel by Michelle Paver about an ancient curse and the long night up near the north pole. (not for children that one.) The dragon head of the long boat rising ominiously in the murky waters strikes a fearful image. Excellent visuals. Viking mythology, mist and a lonely coast, some of my favourite story elements.

I really liked Ace as a companion. I did not have a problem with the accent, accents not being such distinct class markers in Oz and street kids not being necessarily working class as some critics seem to imply. (In fact the street kids i knew were all from wealthy families.) At times I find her characterisation a bit forced but at least she had character, a quality distinctly lacking in her immediate predecessors. IMHO she was the first watchable companion after Romana decamped. There is also a lovely rapport between her and the Doctor and it is no surprise to learn that they were good friends off screen too. McCoy is really coming into his own as the Doctor and I think it was a shame that he did not get another series. He would have been up there with the best had he had more time methinks.

@mudlark  I recall my mother telling me about girls drawing lines on their legs when stockings were in short supply. I did wonder if a woman with a baby would be working in a military installation, as I thought that marriage or pregnancy meant instant dismissal from the armed forces then. (My mother was in the army during WWII and so the typing pool had a ring of familiarity to it for me.)

Cheers

Janette

 

 

[janetteB @replies]

@phaseshift. Glad your brother is on the mend.

@arbutus & @apopheniac I second that award. I worked out what BTL meant but every time I see it I hear Billy Crystal’s voice in my head.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@papermoon I just watched Dalek Invasion of Earth and Ian and Barbara respectively both do at least as much as the Doctor. I think the trolls who complain that the series is too focussed on the companion now either forget, ignore or are ignorant of the old series. (actually probably the later and of the new series too) And BtW welcome to the forum. I have a feeling my aunt lived in Redcliffe. It sounds familiar. It is the only suburb of Brisbane I have ever heard of.

Cheers

Janette

 

[janetteB @replies]

@nerys. I noticed that too and thought it a plot hole. Hence not mentioning it because sometimes I prefer not to pick holes in the fabric of illusion but you have provided an excellent explanation for it. Must not forget there are no plot holes, only failures in interpretation. 🙂

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

Hi @danmartinuk I am another refugee from your blog. I read it every week still and recommend the (increasingly scarce) positive posts for at least the first few pages before the overwhelmingly negativity defeats me. I feel really bad about not posting my own comments though. I am constantly reminded by my SO that I should not let the trolls have the final say but time and tolerence are limited. Anyway do, do keep up with the blogs and I promise to make a greater effort next season to ignore the trolls and just post. The trolls may make the most noise but they are not representative of the general readership. But Dan I must dispute your views re’ Danny… Please jump into the discussion on the Death in Heaven thread..

Cheers

Janette

 

 

[janetteB @replies]

@purofilion The search for Gallifrey may well be Capaldi’s arc and will not be concluded until his final story. (And long off may that be.)

I have been meaning to remark on Capaldi/Doctor since I started to rewatch the series a couple of weeks ago but thought I would wait until the end. I thought at first, like Dan Martin on the Guardian, that he was slowly fitting into the role. I re watching I realised that I was wrong about that. He was the Doctor from the start. It wasn’t Capaldi at fault but me. I was taking time to adjust to the new Doctor, time to accept that he really was my Doctor. Smith, like Tennant before him, was a very hard act to follow and I think I had forgotten just how long it took me to fully accept Smith but Capaldi made the role his from the start and has brought so much depth to it. I love his dry humour, his social awkwardness, his thoughtfullness and unpredictability. Long may he be at the Tardis controls.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

I fear that you are all right and CiF is beyond hope. Reading it depresses me but I feel bad about letting the trolls have the final say and abandoning Dan Martin. The trolls now speak publicly for fandom. IT is a bad state of afairs. I especially feel for Moffat, Capaldi and the other actors who are bagged constantly and there is clearly a political line too, to bag the BBC. Grrrr.

@scaryb. I admire you and the few who persist. I do read through the comments, depressing though it is, and recommend where I can  but I have not posted in ages, probably mainly because I give up after reading a page of so of negativity.  I really must make more of an effort. I am sorry for raising the subject. Back to more pleasant topics,

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@lisa Santa travels the world in a night on a sleigh that can hold enough toys for every child. He must be a timelord. Long have I said so.

@norcaltradis. That is pretty much what I said. Orson is Danny without the baggage. I agree with you that the raport between Clara and Orson is not that of a great grandmother and descendant. I don’t think that the dire news Clara is about to divulge at the end is that she is pregnant. I think she is simply going to say that she can no longer travel with the Doctor. His assumption that Danny returned makes it easy for her to say it. I would be surprised if pregnancy was make out to be such a dreadful thing on what is still a “family” show. I think she feels as though she has both suffered too much damage and been the cause of damage as a result of her travels with the Doctor. By the end of the episode she has not just lost DAnny but she has been in part his killer and recognised that he died as a result of her actions and died in pain as a result of her lies. Personally I think that makes Donna’s fate pale considerably and that is why I needed someone to say, “No. It can’t end like this.” Santa was a bit of a shock though.

I am thinking that we should try and reclaim the Guardian blog from the trolls. I just hope that Moffat and co are aware of this site just so they know what real fans are thinking about the series. I often imagine Moffat lurking here and rubbing his hands in glee, thinking, umm, I put an easter egg on a shelf, that will keep them busy, or I’ll toss in a mention of this or an illusion to that, just to fuel those crazy, bonkers theories. Then he sits back and enjoys the resulting wild flights of fantasy…

Cheers

Janette

 

 

 

[janetteB @replies]

@rob. Where do you get your coffee? It’s clearly a superior brew to that which I’m drinking. 🙂 (Don’t tell Seb but right now I’m back to instant.)

I agree that Danny will stay dead but either something of his DNA will become Orson or Orson will turn out to be a long lost twin so that Clara gets a chance of redemption because right now she is suffering from fairly actute guilt over her treatment of Danny and that is a very dark place to leave a character in, (Just my opinion there of course.) Which would be an entirely predictable Thomas Hardy ending but not really Dr Who as Santa pointed out. I loved the initial impression that it was the director making that call at the end.

Cheers

Janette

 

[janetteB @replies]

One day someone is going to bring back Adric, just to annoy us all. 🙂

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@barnable. I am no doubt nit picking but it is unlikely that Clara would have inherited Danny’s estate, what there was of it. I assume that as a solider Danny would have been obliged to make out a will so unless he rewrote his will in the time that he knew Clara which I doubt as death would not have been on his mind then she would not inherit. As they were clearly not living together she would not end up “going through his stuff”.  I suspect however that Moffat may not be thinking at such a banal leval however but one other objection to Orson directly inheriting the Toy Soldier is that it was not particulary lucky for Danny. When he hands it to Clara I got the feeling he knew something and had an intention that she make use of it in a particular way. I would like the toy soldier to begin its journey with Orson, pass to the Doctor and from the Doctor to Danny rather than take the obvious route.

Barnable again, Ooh. I like your theory about how the boy was returned to his body as it would also enable them to make a clone Danny, ie Orson.

It was nice to hear Brisbane mentioned. Maybe next time it will be Adelaide. (Though of course they used an image of the Opera House. Oh well.. )

A thought on Father Christmas. One of the themes this series has been lying. Father Christmas is perhaps the biggest lie that parents ever tell their children. Wonder if that will be a theme. Of course the other theme is parents and children, giving, etc. Still hoping that the Doctor will find Susan. (I don’t give up easily.)

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

So now I have read through all the posts some comments,

I have to disagree with @phMO and others who have remarked about a “lack of fun” this series. I have found it to have many LOL moments. The style of humour is different to that of the M.S. era. It is juxtaposed against the more sombre overall tone of the series but those moments are there and the more acute for the contrast.

@belshazzar re post 35107 Danny does deserve better which is partly why I hope that S.A returns as Orson to take Danny’s promised place in Clara’s life and maybe becoming part of “team tardis” if J.C. stays on. And also welcome to the forum,

@macphisto96 post 35138 was excellent. (I don’t recall just what you said now but I was taking notes so it must have been good.:-)

@mudlark, All of your posts are commendable as usual.

@arbutus Of course we believe in Santa!! Actually as many of the shows target audience still do or at least engage in suspended disbelief, Moffat is going to have to tread carefully but then, he is good at that.

@voidstuff. WE can only wish but I think the zygons are done with and Osgood either died or was transported. (I suspect that at the time of the script she died but in future that might change.)

@arbutus I do think it is important to occasionally kill of characters that the audience is invested in but your excellent post has swung my view of the killing of Osgood. I had the same issue with the killing of Danny last week but it was resolved this week when he died twice more and those deaths have meaning. I suspect that like Strax, Osgood’s death might well be “re though out” given the fan reaction.

And some quoted comments which I particularly agreed with which I took down while reading and making notes..

@juniperfish

And I do miss Smith’s easy comedic turn and his slapstick physical comedy – it was one of the lovely aspects of his Doctor. But Capaldi’s sombre Doctor, with his gruffness and his soft centre is equally beguiling, just in a different way.

 

@nerys

I suppose I am also tiring of everything being about the catastrophic end of Earth and/or humankind. I understand the writers’ logic, that we viewers will care more about what happens here than somewhere out there … but it was the somewhere out there that, at least for me, gave the series its magic.

@scaryb

I think Orson will come into it somewhere; he may not be a descendant though, maybe a clone or an alternate timeline. Or… Danny’s dead so they can’t resurrect him to his own time but maybe they (Santa) could park him upstream somewhere (as in Hide) so that he is Orson.

 

So should we all petition Moffat to bring back Osgood because we know that story arcs can be re written.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

Have just rewatched and somehow had even more of a problem with the tear ducts this time. I am still reading through all the comments above but several things struck me. Firstly about Danny. IT does appear he has no family as Seb is unable to contact his next of kin.

How does Orson end up with the toy soldier? I doubt that, even if she is pregnant, Clara would be a legatee. I am really hoping that, though it would seem the most obvious solution to the riddle and this episode certainly favoured the more straightforward solutions, Clara isn’t pregnant and Orson is an “alternative” Danny whom she ends up with, a better Danny not damaged by war and childhood abandonment. Orson at the time seemed to be a Danny without the baggage. Clara repeats the “I will never say these words again” in this episode and  I feel that those words have to be proven wrong in order for her to find some “redemption” for her betrayal of Danny.

Another mention of the Doctor’s family firmly establishing that he had children and grandchildren on Gallifrey. His despair at the end was truely heartbreaking. What does everyone want most for Christmas? Home and family. No matter where you are or how wonderful the adventures you have having, when it comes to Christmas there is a yearning, even just for a day, for home and family.

Now back to reading comments. 🙂

Cheers

Janette

 

[janetteB @replies]

Have just finished watching the episode so first impressions. It was a corker. I was so glued to the screen I forgot to hand out the jammy dodgers. It was a considerably more straightforward story than expected but it delivered a few quite shattering emotional punches; Osgood being deleted, Danny and Clara, Kate’s death and rescue, Danny sending back the boy and the Doctor’s despair at the end. (Peter Capaldi was wonderful and Jenna’s portrayal was also deeply moving.) And as for the ending, I was devestated, not quite believing that it was all over and then there was that voice, expressing just what I felt. What an ending. As I predicted on the Sofa, evil, evil MOffat is going to keep us in hideous suspense until Christmas.

I am certain that Danny will be downloaded and become Orson and there is still the possibility that we will meet Ian. The Toy Soldier is yet to play its part. Maybe it will be the toy soldier that will lead the Doctor back to Gallifrey or enable Danny to be downloaded from the Matrix and thus saved. So many questions still to be addressed and for a terrible moment I thought they would be vanished into the ether but not so.

Second thought, that Missy is teleported not dead. The youngest sofa viewer noted that she disappears in a blue puff of smoke, others vanish in red. I will have to rewatch tomorrow and see if he is correct. I guess there is no hope that Osgood will be resurrected if that is the case.

Now to start reading through all the posts, almost as much fun as the episode itself. I am so going to miss this weekly treat. I have one complaint about this series, it has been way too short. I can’t believe that it is over already.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

I have one big complaint, and I mean big, with this series. It is almost over. @juniperfish I hope there are some tissues handy because, even if Danny does not die and Clara lives on to continue her wayward adventures on the Tardis, I am going to need them. I will bring some Jammy Dodgers. I have a couple of packets in the pantry. Just wishing I did not have to wait until tomorrow night.

As to the question about show runners, I don’t really like making comparisons because each has brought so much to the series and deserves credit not the censure of comparison. RTD did some brilliant stuff but his work was let down by the series endings when he felt the need to do bigger and better and in doing so tried to achieve the impossible and failed. I always felt that he put so much into the finale of series 1 that he was unable to better it but determined to do so and having hit the top from then on was doomed to go “over the top”. Moffat has tried, rather more successfully I think to produce big bang series endings though there is always something a little unsatisfactory about them. I think that is because Moffat excells at the small stories and the timey wimey stuff and pulling out the grand finale fireworks is not quite his style. Moffat brilliance is in doing “clever” rather than simplistic action stories. He is willing to experiment, to try new ideas and as a result some work, some don’t. AT least he was willing to experiment. He has brought some brilliant secondary characters into the Dr Who world, fleshing it out a little, giving it a depth that old Who lacked. Vastra, Jenny, Strax and new Unit have all enriched the mythos just as River Song did and I am glad that she had merited at least a mention this series. I hope that Unit and the Paternoster Gang will outlive Moffat just as old Unit outlived respective production teams. (Not that I am in any hurry for Moffat to move on. He does not appear to have run out of fresh ideas yet.)

As for colours on the mast, well here are my motley collection, Danny is not dead, Clara’s call was from the future, the afterlife is a con, Orson is Danny’s clone or twin and Clara will sacrifice herself to bring Danny back, hence the message. (And I will have tissues at the ready, just in case.) And we will not meet Ian until the Christmas Special because I suspect this story will not be fully resolved until then because Moffat is evil and would enjoy tortouring us by keeping us in suspense for two months..

So till tomorrow then,,

Happy viewing all

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

Still haven’t rewatched the episode so nothing new to add in terms of theories. (I am waiting until our youngest returns from a school trip as he left Sunday morning.)

@jimthefish I have the article open but haven’t read it yet or responded but I will certainly recommend your post.

@bluesqueakpip I agree with you and @Dr Ben re’ the pregnancy theory for most of the reasons cited and because I am still hoping that Orson will be explained by some timey wimey trickery, simply because it is more fun and I expect no less from S.M. 🙂

I am with @miapatrick though in the question of the timing of the phone call. There was a degree of surrealism to that entire scene which reinforces the suggestions that the is something less straightforward happening. Also, I am sure it has been suggested but I don’t recall by whom so apologies, that the body on the road, which we don’t see, may be Clara. I also think that until he hits that button, Danny is still alive or has the option to return to life.

@midnyt I forgot the horse is Susan!!! So timelords can species jump as well as gender hop. That could lead to some interesting regenerations in the future.

@phaseshift Very well said..

@Purofilion I hope that you are now fully recovered from the ordeal of the wardrobe. As long as there were no rebacks lurking in there.

Cheers

Janette

 

[janetteB @replies]

I think the close friendship between Delgado and Pertwee permeated through into the scrips giving the Master and Doctor relationship that love/hate edge from the start. I see them as having been childhood friends. Since the reboot that frienship has gained a suggestion of sexuality. In some way Missy is the Rani because she was only an attempt at creating a female Master, recognising how the dynamic of female Master, (mistress) and Doctor would work. Unfortunately the Rani just didn’t work as a character but to be fair, at that time, nor did the Master. AS to the kiss, well Capaldi made his feelings known from the start about snogging companions in the Tardis. I just imagine Moffat rubbing his hands with glee and thinking, “I’ll get round that”. I guess that Missy is now the “anti-companion.”

Cheers

Janette

 

[janetteB @replies]

Reading through the above posts I thought of my most bonkers theory ever, Orson is Susan. Even the names are similiar. (I just told my eldest. HE has now left the house. 🙂 ) Not sure how to fit Danny into that as I assume he does have only one heart or it would have raised some eyebrows when he did his army med test. Obviously I have suffered a deficiency of coffee this morning.

Back to serious discussion…

Cheers

Janette

 

[janetteB @replies]

So many great posts it has taken me two days to read though everything. I don’t think there is much I can add however a post of @whisht‘s made me think a little. I lot of people have supposed that the cybermen are not the main problem. Clearly that is Missy. It would seem that she is using the cybermen for some devious purpose all her own no doubt involving tormenting the Doctor and controlling the earth because that always was her/his prime motive. Maybe the cybermen are only a threat, akin to Clara and the keys, do as I want or I will let the cybermen destory your precious planet. The Clara beginning was a taster for what the story is going to be about.

About the three months, I expect everyone is right though I am rather hoping that it refers to the length of time he has been dead or something else because I am still hoping that Orson will turn out to be a twin or clone of Danny.

I have yet to do a re-watch as yet. Something to look forward to tomorrow I hope.

Cheers

Janette

 

[janetteB @replies]

@pedant. I know Clara was referring to Danny’s death as “boring” due to grief but in a narrative sense, being hit by a car is rather disappointing. We all expected him to die, (if die he must) as a result of her actions. I rather think that her referring to his death as boring pointed out the meaninglessness of such a death, which sadly is not unrealistic just not “romantic”. I suspect therefore that his death was not accidental as she assumed. Clara’s words are certainly meanginful and hint at @miapatrick‘s suggestion that the phone call is being made by Clara in the future. There appeared to be some time thing happening there. Their clothes, Danny in the pink shirt which he was wearing when they first met and the dress, (which I think was last season or early this season? ) suggested a Danny and Clara from different times. (I was not being critical or intending to be, only suggesting that the manner of Danny’s death did not seem “real” because it was too realistic to be “dramatic”. Maybe I will try that line again in the morning when not so tired.

As for your suggestion at the end there @pedant, That sounds distinctly possible. I suspect that tissues will be required by the end of this series.

I persist in doubting that Orson is Danny’s descendant. A twin or a clone maybe.

 

Cheers

Janette

 

[janetteB @replies]

Have watched finally after a agonising day of delayed gratification akin to having a great mysterious box under the Christmas tree that you can’t open until the allotted time. So many thoughts and right now they are all jumbled so here goes,. So Missy was the Master after all. I confess I was a little disappointed. I hoped up until the reveal she was at least going to be the Rani, just for the sake of variation. But Danny is dead!! Clara returned to us. Kudos to J.C for another brilliant performance.

As I suspected the trailer was a misdirect. Clara is redeemed for lying and did not betray the Doctor, or not yet. We still don’t know why Missy referred to her as “Clara my Clara.” Danny’s “boring” death, I assume was no accident. The car that came out of nowhere was almost certainly sent by Missy. Danny was killed in order to “buy” Clara. “Everyone has a price”, as is stated in Time Heist. Clara’s “price” will be the saving of Danny.

I also wondered if the costumes worn by Clara and Danny in the opening sequence were significant. He was wearing the pink shirt and she the dress that they wore early in the series. (or was the dress last series? I have to follow up, tomorrow. Too late now.)

Finally a theory, Clara will use the toy soldier to reclaim Danny. Would be nice if it turns out that the Doctor gave the toy to Susan and they have to find Susan to get the toy back, in the Christmas special. (I admit. I don’t give up easily 🙂 Would be nice if saving DAnny was the Christmas surprise.

(apologies of any of this has already been suggested. I have yet to read through the other posts.) Will respond to others tomorrow.

Cheers

Janette.

 

[janetteB @replies]

@papermoon I share your fascination with the Danny/Orson link. I have even had dreams about it where I work it all out then wake up and don’t remember just what the solution was. I suggested on The Sofa that Danny and Orson are twins and the Doctor is the time travelling ancestory Orson refers to. Danny has somehow gone back in time as a child, probably due to Susan, (whom I am determined to “write” back into the story) who assumably is his mother. (She may have regenerated at least once since we last encountered her.) I have tried to work the toy soldier into this. The Doctor would have passed it on to Susan who may have left it in the orphange with the infant Danny. I think something of my crazy dream has leaked through to the waking mind. Well bonkers theories are meant to be bonkers aren’t they??

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@waterintheforest Some very good points about the companions especially I think, in regard to the problem with Martha. Also interesting comment about Any and Rory too. I think MOffat really went out of his way to kill the romantic interest only to revive it with Clara which I was disappointed about.

Cheers

Janette

 

[janetteB @replies]

@besd1

Danny. Personally I’m not a huge fan, but I don’t get the noise about him being controlling/possessive/ a potential abuser. Wasn’t it him who told Clara to think carefully before deciding to stop traveling? Wasn’t it her who lied repeatedly to him, even though he made it clear he didn’t have an issue with her being in the Tardis? Wasn’t it him who, confronted with evidence of her dishonesty, didn’t get angry or exit in high dudgeon, but actually very reasonably explained why he deserved an explanation and then offered her time to think before she gave it? Am I missing something here?

Hear hear. I am with you on this topic. And..

Also, am I the only person who found the prodigal’s silent grin slightly unnerving?

I just attributed it to bad acting in keeping with the cheesiness of that entire scene. When I re-watched the second time I was called out of the room just before that and the episode as a whole was better for it.

Back to Danny. I am with the 50% on his side of the discussion. I think he genuinely loves Clara though I can’t work out why. Thus far he has basically been constantly abused and manipulated by her. The “the next few days are all about you”, line in The Caretaker, was manipulative. Her constant lying to him is manipulative. Like the Doctor we have seen a better Clara but he has only seen a “broken” version. Clara was lying to him before she even knew him so I don’t think it was his fault ever. I am constantly wondering why he loves her so much which gives weight to the suggestion made by @Purofilion and others that he is a construct of her imagination. (Though we have kind of been there with Amy and I doubt that Moffat would repeat that story idea.) I guess we will soon know one way or t’other.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@wolfweed. So glad to hear you are ok. You have been greatly missed here. Hope you can be back to join in the fun soon.

Chers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

Yes I now take notes when I am first reading through the threads because usually by the time I view an episode there is over a page to get through. Unfortunately now I don’t even know when that idea was first suggested. I still hoping to find that Dan is Orson’s missing twin brother, as in the medieval tale about Orson and Valentine. (The later name kind of suits Danny now.)

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@Purofilion Sorry I forgot who mentioned the “perfect boyfriend” and who suggested that everything might be in Clara’s mind. Re watching the episode this morning it was Danny as the perfect boyfriend that really struck me with that idea in the back of my mind. She is even playing the audience at times, watching him, remarking on how attractive he is. I also found her instant attraction to him in Into the Dalek rather unaccountable but put it down to it being just a story and necessary given the time limits and that the romance was not the primary subject of the episode.

I originally dismissed the idea that everything is happening in Clara’s head or generated by her because it does make it rather a “and then I woke up” kind of scenario however Moffat has done that before with the Big Bang and re setting the universe. Moffat does like to play with questions of reality and there has certainly been that theme running through this series.

The tears when asked had he killed a civilian suggest to me that there is more to Danny that Clara’s wish fulfillment. I certainly hope so anyway. (I like the suggestion that was made, again, I have forgotten whom by, that it might have been Clara that he killed or caused the death of.)

(I posted most of this on another thread. The Sofa I think.)

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

Having just rewatched this episode again with the suggestion in the back of my mind, (sorry I have forgotten who first suggested that) that everything this series is an invention of Clara’s I must say Danny does appear to be her perfect SO So perfect that, as the Doctor points out, he isn’t entirely believable.

@whisht I like that suggestion. Maybe the Doctor is seeing things we aren’t and when he comments upon Clara’s age perhaps it is Missy’s age he is remarking upon. I dismissed it as a red herring but Clara is continually called Miss Oswald or simply Miss by her students, so Missy does apply. Also I put my money (figuratively speaking) on Missy being a time lord or a new villian and not Clara and I am always wrong. 🙂

I could probably squeeze the Missy as Clara into my favourite theory, that Clara has a implanted, sleeper personality if I try really, really hard. Or maybe there is a miniaturised Missy hidden in Clara’s brain. Doesn’t quite fit with the ipad though. Need to do a lot more head scratching over that idea.

Also welcome back @bobbyfat and welcome to @papermoon

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

Welcome @disquietinwho to the forum. Please don’t feel shy about leaping into the discussions.

I am not sure I can produce a coherent theory. I have a few ideas rattling about but they don’t really fit together. I think Missy is a new villian, possibly a Time Lord. I suspect she is TWitS though I am still clinging to the rapidly disappearing possibilty that it might somehow be Susan. On that note the children wanting their parents this week left me wondering if the Doctor thought of Susan or his own long gone children.

I think Clara has had a secondary personality, a “sleeper” which will be triggered by Missy. Or she might just be cloned. (the more boring option.)  I think Danny was born in the future but sent back, hence his childhood in the orphange. Orson is his twin. Maybe Susan sent him back to find the Doctor but he doesn’t know that yet. So Danny is the Doctor’s great grandson. Ok the last bit as as likely as the moon turning into a dragon. I think Clara’s addiction, maybe fueled by her invisible split persona will lead to trouble and Danny and the Doctor will have to team up. “team Tardis.”

Cheers

Janette

 

[janetteB @replies]

Excellent points @cathannabel and @miapatrick. While I was bumbled around with my inept post you both posted comments that adeptly covered what I was trying to say. 🙂

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

I feel a little guilty for not liking this episode more after reading all the wonderful comments. I loved the premise and the children but even the drama between Clara and Danny felt underplayed to me. He took the revelation that she had been lying rather too well. I will be disappointed if that is the end of that and by next week is is all tidied away and forgotten.

As usual lots of posts to respond to, Firstly just because it was so well said I will quote @blenkinsopthebrave

Maybe, but I think the episode can be appreciated by accepting it at face value (ie, without reference to hidden meanings or as part of an arc). This was an episode where love triumphed, where families were re-united, where Danny radiated goodness and wisdom. Have we become so cynical that we can’t accept that?

I also applauded your remark re’ fantasy, Game of Thrones and the overuse of the terms Edgy and (forgotten the other. Damm not enough notes.)

@mudlark. Excellent comment re’ the forest and interesting discussion about Scandanavian lit’. I would love to see a Dr Who episode set in Early Medieval Sweden playing on the Scandanavian myths, utilising the forests, lakes, carved stones, the sublime light and the sense of the past lurking under the thin veneer of the modern age. I imagine Iceland would also provide a remarkable setting for some Valhalla inspired action. (Iceland is high on my list of places to go before I die. I love Sweden having lived there briefly.)

@phileasf. 8/10 for a very interesting theory.

@juniperfish. I liked your explanation for the sister’s return, that she was brought back to life by the magical beings. It works well.

@spider. I can relate to your story. I have a story to add on the topic. A few years ago our mechanic’s 10-11 year old daughter began to have trouble sleeping because she was hearing noises in her head. They took her to specialists to no avail. I don’t know if drugs were prescribed but I have not doubt they were discussed. This went on for over a year and, understandably was the cause for great anxiety. Then they discovered that white ants had eaten out the frame work of their house. The nest was in the wall behind their daughter’s pillow. White ants make quiet a lot of noise. The noises she was hearing were real.

In the end Danny reminded me a little of Ricky when first invited onto the Tardis. While I was disappointed that Danny turned down the offer to witness something remarkable I understood his reasons. Danny is war-weary. He has tired of danger. I really can’t see Clara settling down to everyday life, working and going home whether alone or with Danny. She wants too impossible things which invariably leads to tragedy.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

A few quick thoughts before wading through, (actually I really enjoy it,) all the posts. I didn’t have high expectations of this episode despite an appealing trailer. I have seen several things recently scripted by Cottrell Boyce and they were very good but they were not Dr Who/like. There are so many fantastic genre writers out there. Why get a guest writer who doesn’t do Sci fi? I liked the concept but the execution let the story down. As Dan Martin said over on the Guardian there was no tension. The Doctor’s sudden realisation that “I was wrong. IT’s all going to be ok” was simply a let down and the child sending out the message was a feeble denoument. I don’t think one child’s voice no matter how “sweet” would have changed anything. The magical disappearance of the trees at the end was also a disappointment.  Would have been nice to have at least seen scenes of people cleaning up the mess and repairing Nelson’s column which  I assume just magically righted itself.

The microscopic, (miniatures again) light things could well be what moved the chalk in the Tardis and inhabited the emptiness at the end of time in Listen but I have a feeling there is no intentional narrative link between the two episodes.

The Missy scene felt rather shoehorned in just to keep us “on the hook” as it were. I don’t think it contributed much other than to reinforce the idea that she is corporeal and has access to modern tech. It somewhat de mystified the character for me.

Two references to the Doctor beign the last of his kind which I thought was a theme that was done and dusted. I was rather surprised when it was revived in this story and wondered if that was for a reason, (and not simply because C-B hasn’t been following recent developments in the story), that the Doctor is about to encounter another of “his kind”, most likely Missy or maybe ….

New bonkers theory, devised when half asleep, (which justifies the madness of it) not sure if this has already been suggested so thought I’d throw it in, Danny in the Doctor’s great grandson sent back in time which would explain the lack of family and why his twin brother, Orson, is still running about in the future.

And finally, my big gripe for the week. Another episode featuring Coal Hill and still no Ian Chesterton. I am going off to paint up a placard. “WE WANT IAN”

Cheers

Janette

 

[janetteB @replies]

Wow @badwolf you have been busy. Thank you for sharing your hard work with us. I really enjoyed the lists. I wasn’t quite sure if the ratings for the later ones were episode or character based. Ie you were rating the Doctor/RiverSong/Daleks or the stories in which they featured. I would like at some time to try doing my own ratings and see how they compare.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@arbutus. Yes what often annoyed me about Amy and Rose was that we were constantly being told that they were perfect. (Glorious Donna clearly wasn’t and Martha, who was perhaps the most deserving of that compliment just never seemed to “make the grade” for the Doctor or script writers). Clara seemed to be of the same mould. I find her far more interesting now and really look forward to seeing where her character trajectory is heading.

Also occurred to me that Danny might be Missy’s hook for Clara but if so I don’t think he is aware of it.

(Anyways must dash. People await, things to do. No more “Whoing” until tomorrow.)

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

Missy may be in more than one place at a time, ie she may have a projection or pscyhic link or a hard light hologram. Throughout this series there have also been many references to duplications, in Into the Dalek they mention “duplicates”, we have had references to cloning and then in Mummy hard light holograms and at the start of the series, robot/humans. Moffat, being Moffat is giving us too many clues, planting the real ones in the forest of red herrings. I agree that Missy is corporeal but I don’t think the Nethersphere is a real place. Either Missy or a projection of Missy or a miniaturised Missy moves between places/dimensions or something. The Doctor was seeing what Clara saw on his monitor, She is doing something rather similiar I suspect.

On Clara and the ability to hold her breath, in Deep Breath Jenny is unable to hold her breath any longer but Clara, who has moved away from the group, appears to be having no difficulty. The kiss distracted attention from what Clara was doing. Also the Doctor continually remarks upon Clara having changed, or looking older. Maybe there is something significant about that. (Having said all that I still think Clara is just Clara, caught up in the momentum of her own lies and I agree with @scaryb that she will have to atone for that at some time.

(I have just started rewatching the entire series and making notes.)

@scaryb. I have the little Dalek on my keyring.

@mudlark you always seem to manage to say something original and very worth reading. 🙂

And the big question.. why have we still not met Ian???

Cheers

Janette

 

 

[janetteB @replies]

@purofilion glad to hear you are feeling better. There was an article in the Guardian about Crohns today. It sounds very unpleasant. I suspect it is what a work mate was suffering from many years ago. She was a med student but had massive difficulty finding out anything about her condition.

@lisa it does certainly seem that a lot of “conditions” are on the rise. Most of our neighbours are teachers, some of which have been in the profession for at least thirty years and they have seen a marked increase in kids with behavioural or learning issues. So often it is attributed to “diagnosis” but a teacher sees a problem not a piece of paper. I think food additives are to blame for a lot, and not just those loaded into junk food but so many of the products we buy have some form of additive. I mostly buy organic now as I have an intolerence to a particular food additive that seems to be in almost everything from dried fruit and juices to dips, cottage cheese, jams, etc; fortunately mostly foods I can do without like flavoured crisps. Plain are fine so when I need a salty carb fix to go  with a glass of shiraz I don’t have to gaze forlornly at others eating when I can’t.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

Arbutus

I once took a course in Old English from a German prof who simply couldn’t understand that we weren’t all linguistics majors! He expected us to easily make connections that just weren’t always happening for us.

Of topic but reminded me of an English, Medieval Lit lecturer who had the same problem with us, mono lingual Aussie students and our inability to grasp middle English. Oddly enough the only student who had no issues was a friend whose parents were Greek.

@mudlark

But when the Doctor says ‘… goodness had nothing to do with it’ he was referring to moral excellence or rightness, a quality which he clearly believes he does not possess, and which he does not think Clara possesses when she emulates him.

Stamps foot. I was going to say that, though maybe not as well. Clara is a “good” Doctor because of her actions but not the motives behind them.

@arbutus I do see your point about the Doctor and Danny “saving” Clara but she is usually the strong person in the group so there is a kind of balance. She has often saved the Doctor and might well have to save them from whatever danger they encounter saving her. One hope anyway.

Re comments about Clara’s potential downfall having sexist connitations I think it is important to write well rounded female characters. Clara is strong but like so many traditional heros has a tragic flaw. Danny too has flaws which clash with Clara’s. I would not want to see female actors limited to playing idealised heroines without fault. The companion has to carry the character development aspect of the story and so we often see more “going on” with the female character but there have been any number of strong female characters in Dr Who and Clara is strong but she has a weakness, and both her strenght and weakness were in full play in this episode.

I suspect Missy might be seeing Clara through her phone. @scaryb had a good point regarding the use of phones since Clara was first introduced. Clara is often on her phone, especially in this series.

Another theory is that Missy might be the G.I. which may have survived in some form. After all Clara escaped, maybe the G.I latched onto her and escaped with her and the G.I did pick Clara out initially in Bells of St Johns.

@Purofilion. I like the suggestion that she was born under the clocktower on Trenzalore.

There have been a lot of strange things about Clara, ie her ability to hold her breath, her seeming mind reading skills for instance. (Sure there are more, but too tired to think of them right now.)

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

I have read through page one and made some many notes that I thought I would clear them before embarking on page two.

@bluesqueakpip Re post 33742 Excellent comment about the Doctor’s “defining” moment. I felt by “Mummy” that he was the Doctor but here he announces it. It was well done. Oh and also congratulations for the Graun status.

@Purofilion I agree totally with you re’ the use of the term “edgy.” It has long since become an overused and meaningless term used to sound clever but signifying nothing.

@idiotsavon re post 33781 I think Clara is simply trying to self justify her lies there.

@scaryb Re post 33783 I agree with your view on Danny. I think he will turn out to be a “goodun”. Clara is implying that he is controlling in order to justify her own actions. She is doing a lot of self justifying and her question at the end refects, I think, her own guilt and inner anxiety about her behaviour. I suspect that in the end the Doctor and Danny will team up to save her or at least, to seek for her and that is possibly where Orson comes into it as I suspect he might well be a clone of Danny’s. All digits crossed that we will re-encounter the toy soldier.

And a random comment, Clara’s Hermione Grange- like handbag reminded me of Tom Baker’s infinte pockets.

Now for page two… 🙂

Cheers

Janette

 

[janetteB @replies]

Have just finished second watch of Flatline and decided to comment before i read the other posts otherwise I might not get to post until tomorrow, and I wanted to express my thoughts before they become clouded, so apologies for repeating anything that has already been said.

Another excellent episode. Thus far there has not been one “week” episode this series IMHO (I know of others who would dispute that claim.) Though not every episode will please everyone, (I am obviously just easily pleased, when it come to Dr Who at least) they have all had their strenghts. Robot of Sherwood was saved by its humour and Kill the Moon by its exploration of morality. So to Flatliner.

An interesting concept which did admittedly turn to more conventional fare, the zombie story but as always the real drama was with the Doctor, really on roll now, and Clara. I think the Doctor has now firmly established to himself at least, that he is a good man. He has grown into his newly regenerated skin, as it were. Clara, on the otherhand, is become less certain of who she is. The more confident and braggardy (new word but kind of like it), she appears the less strong she really is. Clara is “acting”. Often in this episode she was outright annoying. The Doctor call her out on lying. The reaction to the lies told at the end of the last episode which so many of us objected to, played out through this story and I suspect that is a theme that has a long way further to go. There will be bigger consequences than her loosing the Doctor’s respect.

The Doctor makes his ethical stance clear in this episode. It was almost as though the script writer had popped into the future, read the posts about the episode preceeding this one and then addressed the concerns raised in his script. I look forward to rewatching the entire series and seeing all the various themes developing.

On arc references, it would seem that Missy was the woman in the shop. I am still hoping that is a misdiretion. Is Missy in come way connected to Clara’s personality changes? I once speculated that she was an implant in Clara’s head. It would seem that she is rather more corporeal than that given that she has access to modern tech. Maybe she is dimension hopping or jumping universes but it looks as though she has a physical presence in the “here and now”. Does she have implants in Clara or the Doctor? The image on the tablet appears to be from the Doctor’s perspective.

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

Welcome new members, @technohippy and @robertdaller

@Purofilion. Sorry to hear that you have been unwell. Hope you are now on the mend. I was wondering where you were last week and about to send out the search parties…:-)

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

This article in today’s Guardian touches on some of the themes we have been discussing.

http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2014/oct/17/growing-up-science-fiction-michael-newton

Cheers

Janette

[janetteB @replies]

@idiotsavon

That said, perhaps just making thoughts happen in people’s heads is the main thing.

I somehow missed that line when I read your post. It is exactly what I was trying to say above and this conversation is the proof if it. 🙂

 

Cheers

Janette

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