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@danmartinuk

Nice to see you. Hang in there! We still love your blog, It’s great that it has your very personal touch, it’s one of the things that makes it stand out, and nestles into its own very special space in the Whoniverse!

There are still a lot of people there who swam over here for a while but prefer the G side.  The first 5 weeks were difficult cos of the leaked scripts; BTL looked like dangerous water! No faith in the mods to exterminate offending posts quickly. Understandably, as they have a lot of threads to patrol and probably not the same sensitivity to such things as us obsessives! Not to mention RL taking people away sometimes.

It’s not just you though. The internet in general sadly seems to encourage bad behaviour and disrespect with hyperbole.  BTL everywhere is notorious for grouchiness, and Whovians even more so, since the show started probably.

Can I second @lisa‘s request for a report back on the DVD fan event in London next week? (@Craig @whisht – do you know about this event?)

(Hmm…. “Who-ster”… I think I like that better than “Whovian” (never a favourite term 😉 )

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@arbutus

Glad you liked it. June Tabor’s version is heartbreaking. I love her take on And the Band Played Waltzing Matilda as well (it was my introduction to Eric Bogle’s world waaaay back).

These songs have been covered many many times in many different genres, it’s interesting hearing different takes on them. Just don’t ever ask me to listen to Joss Stone’s recent cover ever again. My eyes and ears are still bleeding and it was over a week ago 😈 John McDermott’s on the other hand, is lovely, thanks for posting.

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@Purofilion

Bless you! It’s not for the fainthearted, mind!!  I tend to look at the first and last pages and then search for people I know who usually do the interesting posts. It’s not like here (being a public forum) 😉 Put yourself on an automatic pull-out – 15 mins max, or your eyes will fall out and your brain will melt, LOL. 😯

The most recent one is here, but do a search for “Dr Who” and you’ll find others. They like Dr Who articles. Dunno if it’s limited geographically.

Oh yes, the Graun (short for Grauniad) is so called because the Guardian is notorious for its typos 😉

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@bluesqueakpip

I agree that a Zygon!Osgood would be great. But do Zygons not revert to their original form if the person they’re imitating dies?

On this year’s theme of “what is a good man (or dalek)?” we also have the Master/Missy. You could see DW/DiH as suggesting that the Master could  have reformed, that she seriously just wants to be the Doctor’s friend again and to be “understood”. (Do I believe a word of that? Not flaming likely! I saw what she did to Osgood!)

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Re the Graun blog…

@blenkinsopthebrave Ah, you’re just a cynical old Whovian. Has the Doctor taught you nothing??? Nothing is beyond redemption!! Even Dr Who blogs.  This Forum started over there, not just as a reaction to the trolling, but also because we wanted somewhere to continue the discussions when it was “off air”. And because a number of us had got to know each other, albeit virtually, and liked interacting.

It seems to be picking up again toward the end of this week. A fair number of recent posts are calling out the trolls, but politely!  There are a lot  more “reasonable” posts, pointing out why calling for Moffat’s head skewered on a plate is maybe just a tad out of order, and suggesting that a bit of respect for opposing views is a good thing.  And some more positive comments about the show itself. Niceness will out!

@janetteb @cathannabel @bluesqueakpip @jimthefish and everyone else who has recently expressed an opinion – it’s good to keep posting there if you can, even just to “like” the positively-expressed comments. The ethos we’ve developed over here can set a a great example if we apply it there as well. Set an example and don’t let the trolls get under your skin! And there are a few familiar avatars who swam over to this side for a while.

@danmartinuk Keep the faith and keep on blogging 🙂 Missing the promised track of the week though!

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@phaseshift I love Den of Geek! They tend to do more detail, and they love Dr Who! (and lots of other stuff I like)

Sorry to hear about your brother but glad that the news is better now. Hope that continues. Been missing your ascerbic hunour 😉 (Ah, there’s one on every forum!! hahaha – there’s only one Phaseshift 😈 )

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@lisa The cybermen in the graveyard are described as “newborns”. They are still developing. I think there was a reference to a second cloud of “rain” which would deliver a chemical to complete the process to make them seriously scary

@badwulf Agree with you re Jacobi’s prtrayal. I felt as much shock and loss for Chantho’s death as I did for Osgood’s. (And apologies for not commenting on your Dr Who appreciation chart – excellent stuff! Will get on to adding my assessments soon 🙂 )

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@lisa – But the dead could only rise from their graves as cybermen once their (or someone else’s) consciousness had been downloaded from the Nethersphere. And all the dead ever, up to the point of the episode were uploaded to the Nethersphere (so they could then be downloaded as cybermen). So if they died as cybermen – would they then by re-uploaded?  The Nethersphere was closing down, but still functional for a little while. Danny gets back and rescues the boy, so maybe there’s still a little glimmer of hope for Osgood?

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And… YAY!! the countdown clock’s back (thanks @craig)

Only 41 days to go…

*sigh*

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@apopheniac I’m with you re Danny. I think he was a damaged PTSD ex soldier who just wanted a quiet life! I’ve got my fingers x’d that we’ll get Sam Anderson back as Orson 🙂

@rob

Well in the eternal triangle of Bucks, Oxon and Northamptonshire  where the winds blow, the rain cascsdes and the earth slowly liquifies into a soul sapping gelatinous ooze….

That is a brilliantly vivid description. No wonder you need copious doses of extra strong caffeine!

@lisa – re bringing Osgood back  – what happened to all the cybermen who were exploded by Danny? Did their consciousnesses all get sucked back into the Nethersphere…? In which case, maybe Osgood with them? (Did I mention how much I love your avatar btw? Distinctly creepy! 🙂 )

@ozitenor Nice spot on the parallel between Danny’s tear early in the series and the cybermen logo

 

Hmm, some bridge rebuilding needed I see!! Or maybe just replacing some slimy rocks! 😈

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@phaseshift

Absolutely stonking Masterspotting post! 😀 And yes please – a Master blog would be great

@drben – Agree with you that it should help the cyberisation process if the “delete” emotions is voluntary. Make the newly “dead” completely terrified with lies about still being attached to what their body is feeling – on top of the realisation of actually being, y’know, dead and it makes sense they will press delete.  They would be in a state of despair, and wanting to not be able to feel any more. I would think that would make regression/fighting back much less likely.  The show has a history of strong individuals who are able to resist being cyberised fully (just as well for plot development really!), if their will and motivation is strong enough – but they are very rare.  And this is a different process from previous cybermen stories – these are Missy’s invention. Developed espeically to be the Doctor’s “birthday present”

Presumably cremated bodies are no use, so the lie is essential to perpetuate the army.

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*waves @ozitenor* Nice intro. Look forward to hearing more of your thoughts.

@phaseshift Nice link to the Moffat intereview at RTS. Den of Geek have a good report as well (slightly longer, with some other observations. And bigger print, haha. And more pics)

I love Moffat’s comments about filming false scenes and complaining that “no one steals scripts any more”!!

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And if the last one didn’t get you rubbing that pesky bit of grit out of your eye, this one surely will! Beautiful version.

 

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@Purofilion

Hi. Really wasn’t doing the big waggy stick, sorry if it came over that way. It’s just when we decided the above it was because it had got a bit messy – there was a spillage 😉 (And yes I agree – let’s blame @ Pedant, ha ha 😈 )

Nighty night, sweet dreams n all that

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Oooh! Bit of catching up to do, you’ve been prolific!

@cathannabel @Purofilion @janetteb @badwulf (and everyone)

Re trolls in t’other place. Just a reminder – we agreed ages ago not to namecheck particular posters from other blogs on here. Apart from the danger of contamination(!), they do check here from time to time and it makes us look smug, and a bit sneaky. (Not to mention giving them a kind of validation – “Oh look” they’re talking about ME!”  Please don’t give them the satisfaction, they’re not worth it). If anyone wants to tackle them it should be done on that board and not here (tempting as it is!!). There’s a few of us still over there, mainly to support Dan and go a small way to redressing the balance in tone (it’s not about homogenising our views of the show), since that’s where this Forum originally started. 😉

@juniperfish I just went to check on Linda Lee’s reviews, but there’s been nothing posted (and no explanation) since Mummy… (which she liked a lot)

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@arbutus Chuckled at the Louis Armstrong one and Lau are always great.

This is a sad one, but it is Remembrance Day. For Danny and all the RL old soldiers who have passed on. (There are many, many versions of this song, this is the original. By a Scotsman now living in Australia)

 

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A bit of a cheerier song after 11 and 12’s darker themes. For Clara and the Doctor and best friends everywhere –

“I’ll follow you wherever time will take me to…” 🙂

 

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I love coming in here 😀

@whisht Thanks for the Cash link “Man Comes Around”  That’s as devastating to listen to as Lou Reed’s “Hello It’s Me” which you posted earlier! 😥 (A great selection in fact)

@phaseshift – LOL’d at your Blondie comments (and yup, kudos to @thekrynoidman for starting it) and then fell off the sofa at “by t’ t’, as they are called in Yorkshire“. And that Damned track is knock-out

@barnable – 2 fine choices indeed

I’m suggesting this for Death in Heaven, because of the band’s name, general theme of friends and running. It’s  a great song, and, what the hell, I’m just an old hippy at heart, haha

 

 

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@bluesqueakpip @chrissk

But until that reveal there was no previous clues or build up to that point.

::Ahem:: May I present to you my post #34072 from the discussion on Flatline?

In which I remark:

Anyway, what could be more scary than an insane Master trying to torture the Doctor?
An insane Master trying to be helpful, in the Master’s own, inimitable way. ‘Cause they love each other really. 

I’ve also commented on previous threads (sorry can’t track it down at the moment) that I had a theory that Missy was collecting dead people to make a present (an army of soldiers) for her “boyfriend” 😀

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@mudlark

Clara’s birthday was stated as 23rd November, 1986

(meta theory)

@bluesqueakpip has a whole, (pure genius) detailed theory, from series 7, about how Clara is a metaphor for the show itself! (including the gap years from her journal which coincide with periods when the show itself was cancelled). Can’t remember if it’s on here or was just on the Guardian blog.  Hopefully on here and she can link to it 😉

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A few people have asked why Clara didn’t recognise Missy as the WitS.  Unlike my now-trashed theory of Missy bugging Clara’s phone/laptop when she went into the shop, it’s clear that Clara phoned a helpline. Missy changes her accent to WitS’s voice to demonstrate, as she’s telling them. (Now there’s a masterclass for Clara in control freakery!)

@mudlark It doesn’t matter when Missy escaped from Gallifrey – it’s stated that she has a TARDIS, she can timetravel.  But you’re right it’s at least a Moffat loop if not an outright paradox! Just how long has she been messing in Clara’s life? Did she blow the leaf that brought her mum and dad together? Was she responsible for the car which caused Danny’s death? (We know she was monitoring). And if rule no 1 is that the Doctor lies, it goes without saying that the Master lies to get what he/she wants. Always has. And what he/she wants is to be in control.

btw loved your line “disbelief not so much suspended as tied up and gagged in another room” Best place for it!!

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@arbutus

Danny and I will be just fine

That’s as big a lie as the one the Doctor tells her about having found Gallifrey and is planning to go home and settle down.

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@phileasf You made me laugh out loud with

It was almost but not quite entirely unlike my theories

Welcome to my world!! But it’s also the joy of bonkers theorising. we don’t actually want to be right! 😉

@bluesqueakpip Absolutely no need to apologise! I’ve thoroughly enjoyed debating Danny’s character with you. And he’s not easy. I mentioned his emotions were “bolted down”, but all his behaviour is. He tries very hard not to allow himself to feel, because when he does it’s all guilt and remorse. When we meet him he’s already a “dead man” going through the motions of living. In lots of ways he’s a very bad choice for a partner by Clara. She needs someone stronger who will force her to face up to responsibilities. I liked that – like the PTSD former officer in Mummy...  – Danny finds redemption and reconciliation with his past actions by choosing to release the Afghan boy instead of himself. He’s dead but he’s at peace with himself before he dies.

Given his track record in past incarnations I wouldn’t trust Missy 1mm! All the stuff about “I just want my friend back” is designed to hit the Doctor where he’s weakest. The same when she gives him the coordinates for Gallifrey – she knows exactly how to get to him. And he knows it. By the end of the episode we see the Doctor Defeated. He’s been played by her for a very long time and he’s still puzzling out just how much. But he knows that the fact that she’s here strongly suggests that he can find Gallifrey again. And he understands that it’s not good to be an extreme, either god or the devil. You can’t save everyone (as he’s been learning throughout this series). It’s much more important to be yourself.

Clara on the other hand, hasn’t yet come to this understanding. She still wants to be the one in control. Deep down she wants to be the Doctor. And even the Doctor knows he can’t live up to his own myth. In many ways she’s more like Missy! The irony when she told cyberDanny that the Doctor is the one person she’d never lie to  is that she’s still lying.  Is she pregnant? At Christmas…? 🙂 It’s a tease, but I suspect not, especially since we’ve been shown with River what happens to babies who timetravel. I think Orson will come into it somewhere; he may not be a descendant though, maybe a clone or an alternate timeline. Or… Danny’s dead so they can’t resurrect him to his own time but maybe they (Santa) could park him upstream somewhere (as in Hide) so that he is Orson.

I haven’t found myself shouting at TV characters’ stupid behaviour for a long time but I did it repeatedly last night. I think this is a good thing! 🙂

One thing I have said throughout this series, and I still stand by, is that it’s a 13 episode series – it will carry on into the Christmas episode so we finally get Clara’s resolution. It would be neat if she came and went in a Christmas special, but I’d be happy to see her stay on.

 

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Just thinking – one of the themes throughout this series has been myths, legends and fairytales. And we’re still there with Santa. 🙂

Capaldi’s Doctor has still to complete his “journey”. He’s no longer mid identity crisis – “I’m and idiot with a box!” (note the non gender specific change from “madman”). But he and Clara have to start being honest with each other. I think that’s where each of them will find resolution. The doctor lies no more perhaps…?

@bluesqueakpip I still think you’re making the mistake of seeing Danny thro Clara’s lies. Most of what we know about him is what Clara says about him to the Doctor. He’s damaged, yes, by what happened in Afghanistan, which is why he now looks (looked!!) after kids as a teacher, and why he trades his life for the kid he killed. He’s very “bolted down” emotionally. Clara seems to be one of the very few people (I think he lies too – I thnk he makes up “oh y’know, family stuff”) to have got through his defences. As has been suggested a few times, he’s the Doctor’s mirror in many ways. And when he’s cyberised – he’s in massive pain. I was reminded of that line of Tennant’s about being cyber-converted – “It hurts” *shivers* (that was the moment I knew I was hooked on Dr Who again. (yeah, yeah I know, late to the party! 😉 ))

And look what she does to him – she lies – when there’s no reason. We only think he puts pressure on her (even the passive kind) because she implies this to the Doctor. In order for her to remain in control of her life and of the 2 people closest to her. Her lying to the Doctor confirms this tendency in her – she even admits herself.  She nips off on amazing adventures with this mysterious man with a magic box who makes her sparkle, and then lies to him about it. He gets killed because of it. Then he finds he’s been cyberised!!

If this seems hard on Clara, I don’t mean it to be. She’s also been through a lot, being clariclised n all(!), even if she doesn’t remember it all. But she has to face up to her responsibility.  (See above re completing her journey).

@serahni

What a lovely story about meeting Nicholas Courtney – it’s great when people like that exceed your expectations. “Santa incarnate”  indeed 🙂

Wild bonkers theory:  Has The Master been female in the past and has she, therefore, been one of The Doctor’s previous wives?

Even wilder bonkers theory – Clara’s her and the Doctor’s daughter!!! (Well, as pointed out above, we are a wife missing in the “canon”!)

Missy’s motivation is what the subtext of the Master’s motivation has always been – to impress the Doctor. By giving him a birthday present. Probably. Again kudos to all those who were picking up a Faustian theme in earlier episodes with Gretchen etc. Missy’s Temptation of the Doctor seemed to reflect that as well.

The Doctor at the end knows he has been well and truly played by Missy. All the way through. Then that last scene between the Doctor and Clara, hiding their faces in a hug… ooooh, sorry, I’m off again!! 😥

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So the dead can now rest in peace, and we can relax that we won’t actually feel what our bodies are going through after death.

Bbbb..but – we need to watch out for the rain!!

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Anyone else find it suddenly odd (nice, but suddenly odd) to see Smithy pop up in the Woman in the Shop scene? Capaldi was stunning in this.

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Gallifrey. He’s been back this series but he doesn’t know it. If Clara fesses up to having been back there… Can she get a substitute (un-wardamaged) Danny back through Orson somehow?  Still don’t know why Orson had a TARDIS spacesuit).

@spider It was obviously some highly advanced tech developed by UNIT that can heat scan underground. Top secret dontcha know…?! 😉 Cheers!

*sniff* 😥

(Hope everyone who called poor Danny a manipulative bully feels suitably contrite now!! (Looking at you Ms @bluesqueakpip 😉 ) *Stamps foot!!* Or I spose you think he was still being a bully by making Clara effectively kill him, like switching off the life support on someone who would otherwise be, and who is ready to, die.

Just thinking – Rory was the Lone Centurian, Clara has the Lone Cyeberman to look out for her.

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They had to bring something in at the end to shine just a glimmer of hope. Even evil Moffat, who KILLED OSGOOD (the audience avatar as @abxy pointed out!) and is making us wait for WEEKS, couldn’t leave Clara and the Doctor as such broken souls. Would have been just too bleak to bear. (And I love that it was Santa not Father Christmas. Would have loved it to be Danny but it needed a big ridiculous thing to finish on a WTF and a laugh!)

Danny. 😥

OMG. Everyone, especially Anderson acting their socks off. Poor Danny. He’s only dead cos Clara phoned him because she wanted to explain her lies to him.  His dead face in the cybersuit. So grey. That was dark. And Clara metaphorically putting the knife in twice – “You know what a convincing(?) liar I am” and then telling him the Doctor was the most important person to her.

The boy he killed saved him by coming back for reconciliation (the reflection on the delete gizmo at the end of last week). So Danny finds redemption by saving him. His parents are going to get a helluva shock… assuming he’s still got parents. Clara should look after him.

Well done @phaseshift for calling a theme of armies and remembrance. Could write screeds on this but I thought it was so powerful, especially this weekend.

And cybermen are scary, and tragic, again. Dammit! Would have liked to have seen more of them. (Was that Moffat giving a writing lesson in scary cybermen to Neil Gaiman…? 😉 )

And who’d have bet at the beginning of this series that we’d be screaming for the return of a female Master! Well, assuming the majority of opinion so far in this forum reflects general public opinion. I thought Gomez was magnificent. Hugely playful, highly manipulative and cunning. definitely up there with Delgado. I presume they’ve left her end ambiguous to see what the reaction is).

The whole cast were great, as were direction and the effects. So that’s where this year’s budget went!! 😉 I was UNDER the sofa, shouting at the characters, I laughed and I cried. And the Brig 😥 Great stuff.

(and a quick hi five to @barnable @mudlark @blenkinsopthebrave re Missy’s TARDIS being superimposed extradimensionally on St Paul’s)

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Oh

Oooh…

OH!!!!!!!

WOW

😯

What @pedant said!

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@arbutus Thank you *does little happy yeti skip!*

And look at this series.

If they’d announced prior to it running that there would have been a female Master there would have been uproar. I’m not saying there wasn’t a bit anyway, but it was very much tempered by admiration for Gomez’s performance. (That’s what I meant in an earlier comment about calling her Missy gave people a bit of a chance to get used to the idea before the reveal). There’s been a lot of agreement (even if somewhat reluctant in some quarters) that she makes an absolutely brilliant Master/Mistress

And thanks for picking out @phaseshift‘s comment “That hordes of screaming fanboys will descend on the BBC offices with placards demanding the rematerialisation of the Doctors willy?”  I meant to highlight that too, just brilliant.

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And to encapsulate our hopes for tonight’s episode

“make it magnificent…!”

Enjoy the finale’s finale everyone 🙂

 

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@thekrynoidman

Love Blondie 😀 (thank you)

On topic?

 

 

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Just popping in to say I hope everyone really enjoys the finale tonight (or whenever). I believe we’re getting a full hour show as well 😀

This season has gone fast though, can’t believe it’s nearly over already.

@janetteb

because Moffat is evil and would enjoy tortouring us by keeping us in suspense for two months..

I completely agree with that, haha (been saying it all series).  I think Orson will feature tonight (he’s Rupert’s alternate timeline, created when Clara dabbled in his childhood!! Rupert should have become timetraveller Orson but became Danny instead – oops paradox time 😉 The gunless soldier will be back.) And Clara may have to make a sacrifice to save Danny.  Cyber Danny? 🙁

Can’t wait.

@juniperfish Thanks for the extra sparkles. It’s a bit odd in coffee… but it looks great 🙂 (I won’t tell @fatmaninabox tho – he might not notice. And he’ll never guess it was us, haha!!!)

*leaves big box of tissues, jelly babies and a bottle of TARDIS Red* on the table*

*Bigger on the inside bottle – it never runs out 😉

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@burrunjor @JimtheFish @phaseshift @whisht

Interesting discussion.

I’ve been watching the show since 1963, and have gone thro various degrees of ARSE* along the way. I was upset when Susan left FFS! And then the Hartnell/Troughton change. How dare they change my fave programme! The Doctor should be old!! Then I watched Troughton’s first story – Power of the Daleks – and by the second episode it wasn’t quite “Hartnell… who?” but I was completely on board with it.

The Doctor/companion dynamic has varied hugely over the years with young and old men and women, some from earth, some not, sometimes a single companion, sometimes several at a time; on occasion a robot (dog and cyberhead) and a shapeshifting alien.  Generally speaking the companion is our (the viewer’s) way in but whether it works or not is 100% down to the creative team responsible.

It’s interesting when discussions come up about a new Doctor. All the suggestions put forward by fans, media commenters etc, that I saw were for actors who were by and large very similar to Smith or Tennant. So what do we get? Capaldi – a choice seemingly out of left field and outwith the so called “wisdom” of how the show works/what it needs. And he gets a storyline to suit this new Doctor. It should be the same with any casting of a new Doctor. IF there is a woman cast in the role then it should be because she walked into a mixed casting call and blew them away as the ONLY possibility for the Doctor. And because there was a new story to tell. Whatever – she would still be the Doctor we love.

My point is that the show encourages us to embrace changes. They might not always be to our personal liking, but it’s worth giving the writers/directors/producers etc a chance to tell the story they want to tell before making the call. It’s MUCH more fun this way 🙂

 

*ARSE – A Righteous Sense of Entitlement – when the fan thinks they should be in charge of the show and knows better than the current showrunner what the showrunner wants to say

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@mudlark

but that should on no account be allowed to inhibit bonkers theorising

Absolutely not. Only seeing a little snippet of the big pic (inc trailers, official photos, spoilers for those so-minded) is where bonkers theorising begins and flourishes 🙂

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Good points @mudlark

I still can’t believe it took me a second watch to pick up on the dialogue (which you quote above) about the Nethersphere ie exactly where/what it is.

You say –

a virtual environment which is possibly tailored to suit their own preconceptions.

Great stuff. HFM gets something that looks like his “promised land” (a beautiful garden), Gretchen gets welcomed with a cup of tea and the PC and Danny – both members (and ex members) of organisations that have lots of admin! – get greeted by Seb and forms.

Added to what we know about the matrix from BG Who the odds are clearly on it being a completely virtual environment. With dodgy wifi, LOL.

I think it was @blenkinsopthebrave who first suggested the mausoleum is the Master’s TARDIS superimposed on St Paul’s, which is also my favourite theory.

(Random thought – I think my fav concept in this episode (and it was rich in them) is the thought of babies in the womb telephoning each other. Then “dropping out” after 9 months. Laughed out loud at that one. But it does link in with Who themes of perception – you can’t make a call on what’s happening unless you see the whole picture)

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The other thing that struck me on rewatching was that the Doctor suspects/knows that Missy is a Timelord at least from the moment she puts his hand on her heart(s) – he just finds it very hard to believe, and is maybe trying to work out which one of several bad options she could be. She seems very unlikely to be one of the (very few (were there any??)) good ones. It’s portrayed as shock at the physical contact – his hand stays in position long after Missy has moved away – but is clearly open to the interpretation that he’s in shock at the double heartbeat.

@macphisto96 Muslim Doctor…??? I missed that – remind me. But I agree, and I think it’s part of the reason for the show’s longevity. It’s the same with politics – both right and left have claimed the Doctor for their side, with reasons to back it up. That open-endedness leads to lots of opportunities for discussion.

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@bluesqueakpip

Ah yes, the Master’s Tissue Compressors – you are right.

they could have used miniaturisation at the scene of the accident, followed by a clone corpse

Or teleportation of some sort. There’s definitely a get-out with us seeing neither the accident or Danny’s body. Don’t get me wrong, I think the scene works really well with a literal interpretation, but again there is scope for something else to be going on. Missy’s not being nice! I do hope she isn’t killed off at the end of the finale/Christmas epi (I do think we’re in for a major cliffhanger on Sat 😈 )

LOL at your Moffat comment – maybe he’s been replaced by a double/clone/avatar and the real Moff is being held prisoner, locked deep in the Nethersphere by Missy who is demanding he doesn’t write her out at the end of this series 😉

(btw way did you notice that last weekend was the 46th anniversary of the Tomb of the Cybermen?)

@barnable Hehe – go CyberDino 😀

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Had a rewatch last night and went thro a complete Danny banging his head on the table moment!

As @mudlark pointed out – we know exactly where and what the Nethersphere is. It’s a slice of the Timelord matrix which is currently shaped like a sphere and is hovering in the place which is hosting the cybermen cases, and currently disguised as St Paul’s. (I realise everyone else probably got this, but I missed it completely the first time around.  They couldn’t have been more explicit if they’d stuck a post-it note on it! D’oh!!)

So yes, the question is whether people are transferred as a consciousness or are miniaturised. I’d suspect consciousness because of the nature of the matrix, but there again there’s been a theme of miniaturising this series, as we’ve already noted. (So… any chance of a return of River Song – she’s good on the virtual spaces (and we haven’t necessarily yet seen the significance of her final “Spoilers!” in Name of the Doctor).

@lisa @bluesqueakpip

On the subject of religion – I thought this episode, and DW consistently, was very respectful, and careful not to discredit anyone’s belief, or disbelief, in an actual afterlife. We are very specifically told by Seb that this isn’t the actual afterlife, “just more life than you were expecting”. The show will attack the charlatans who use religion for nefarious purposes, but not the actual belief system or people who believe it sincerely. I think we on this forum should do the same.

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Ooooh, lots of lovely juicy theories, thanks everyone.

@lisa and others – Post-it notes

Well obviously Clara has stumbled into Steven Moffat’s workroom by mistake and is faced with massive spoilers of her own life, predestination paradoxes and a sneaky paranoia that she is being watched. And possibly controlled by an unseen presence! 😉

For the various reasons set out by @bluesqueakpip, @drben and @thebrainofmoffat I don’t think Clara is pregnant, tho they might be teasing us a little with the possibility. @barnable‘s (welcome back btw) idea – raising a baby in the Nethersphere. For 70 years!!!  While it has the plus of originality and bonkersness – is just too many nappies and sleepless nights to contemplate. Moffat’s a parent, he will understand the true horror in that theory 😉

I’m also not convinced that it’s a futureClara at the beginning, tho there’s just about enough wriggle room (change of clothes, no visible body for Danny) if they wanted  to spin that. I found the whole pre-titles scene an incredibly powerful depiction of grief, of how isolated it makes you feel as your world just stops, while for everyone else it keeps on turning at its usual speed.

Re the tribute – I’ve seen flowers and tributes laid at accident scenes within a few hours, and the headmaster’s speech would most likely be the next morning.  There’s usually a few days between a death and a funeral so I’d say Danny’s got a little while to make up his mind. But only till he presses the Delete button. Then he’s doomed for cyberisation (and not just the metaphorical kind).

@phaseshift – You seem to be in mighty fine feisty form tonight, sir!

@jimthefish Good post, but you should know by now when you’re being click-baited. Seriously tho – 9 complaints? That’s an impressive amount of PR mileage for less than double figures moans!

Belated thanks to @Purofilion for the jumper/shirt research (no, don’t see a link yet either), and very glad you got out of the closet 😉 And also to @pedant for his link to all that ARSEness in one place! (ROFL as the kids would say).

And to @bluesqueakpip for Gandalf (took me a while!!)

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And thanks to @arbutus and @purofilion for the Orfeo links and info

@craig was close to getting my track of the week for Heaven but I think @whisht‘s Stevie Wonder Misstra Know it All trumps it for the title alone!

(I was going to post Don’t Fear the Reaper but @phaseshift beat me to it several weeks ago! The “Another 40, 000 coming everyday… We can be like they are” line certainly fits well with this week’s story)

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@whisht

I’m in bits after your Lou Reed post (Songs for Drella is a masterpiece, painfully honest)

I was looking for Bowie’s Queen Bitch, and came up with this version, which is a duet with Lou. So, for the title, and the  line

She’s so swishy in her satin and tat, and her frock coat and bibbity- bobbity hat

 

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@juniperfish – oh I think the Doctor/Master/Missy history is open to a wide range of interpretations, ship away my fishy friend 😉

@Purofilion – re the Doctor’s shrinking hair – have you made a list of where it suddenly changes? 🙂 And could you possibly throw in when he wears the black sparkly jumper and when it’s a shirt please…? And check if there’s any correlation?! (My current pet theory, but I don’t have time to check it)

@gothamcelt – Mary Poppins on the steps of St Paul’s – definitely!

@geoffers – When someone brought up pregnancy a week or 2 back I was definitely in the been there, done that/what a cliche way to get rid of a female character camp. But now I’m thinking it could be Danny’s lifeline (literally!). That’s assuming Orson is his and Clara’s descendant, and we don’t know that yet. But if he is and Danny doesn’t have kids yet, then there’s a paradox in that Clara gets the gunless soldier from Orson to give to the Doctor (defining moment in the Dr’s young life). “IF”, as you say. (And there was the “chemicals” comment this week after he’d done a quick sonic scan). It still works as  get out of Heaven card  if  Orson is only connected to Danny, not Clara. With the amount of running about in the TARDIS she’s been doing she should be at least full term by now!

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@Purofilion

Nice summing up of Missy’s character. I’d just like to add re the kiss  – while it could be seen as the expression a long-repressed lust, I agree with your “He’s bored. He enjoys freaking out the Doctor.”  He’s also a (time)lord of misrule, in the great Bugs Bunny tradition –

Nyeeeh – what’s up Doc?!

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Mega thank yous to –

@phileasf List of post-its is great

@blenkinsopthebrave – Bless you for the foray into Clara’s kitchen, and confirmation of same. Seriously – the rest of us just aren’t worthy!!

You also say

You don’t think that she slipped away with Robin in Sherwood Forest when we weren’t looking, and…

Actually… we were looking! You may be on to something. That would certainly explain Clara’s guilt in Time Heist, and the phone call, as you say.

@fatmaninabox – (yet) another keyboard bites the dust in a splutter of caffeine

 

OK. Bonkers theory #922, part 63 – alternative to the “it’s all in Clara’s/the Doctor’s head theory – they are painting hopping! As in special Gallifrey-hiding paintings. This theory is based on the slightly unreal look to one of the publicity photos, where the Doctor is holding the object from Time of the Doctor (I’m being obtuse in case anyone has really managed to avoid seeing this, but it’s been reproduced as often as the cybermen/St Paul’s scene. (Grr)).  And  the comment about the colours in Robots.

Er… maybe I shouldn’t be drinking quite so much coffee at bedtime!

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@phileasf Thanks for the screengrabs. Very interesting!

@Margaret-Blaine Don’t let the odd post-scramble put you off posting. It happens occasionally, don’t know why. (Welcome to the dark (water) side 😉 )

@jack Re Dr Sarkosa – he would appear to be dead and cyberised – see the inscription on the skeleton-case in his office

@robertdaller The ONLY place for spoilers is the Spoilers thread.  If your post is only about this episode, or previous ones, that’s OK, but if it’s anything else it should be in Spoilers. If in doubt, post in Spoilers. (Could a passing mod (@Craig @jimthefish @phaseshift @fatmaninabox ) please check post #34613 and move if required. Thanks)

@craig 😯 (love the new look!!!)

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@blenkinsopthebrave

So, if heaven/the nethersphere is not real, then what is it? The Master’s TARDIS, with an outer shell of St Paul’s cathederal.

That’s one of the things I was wondering about, but with so many other things to think about, hadn’t got round to yet!

Going back to Robots of Sherwood (again) – the robots’ base seemed to be imposed on, or hidden by, the original castle. Could be a similar thing happening here?

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No one’s mentioned (or have I missed it?) that these are different cybermen from previous ones. These are Missy’s “cybermen from cyberspace”. They appear to be the consciousness of the (recently?) deceased, without emotions (choices again – delete your own emotions (and become a cyberman)/live (your death) with the pain of cremation/dissection/slow putrefaction).

The original Cybermen were augmented humans. They’ve gradually evolved as a concept, and particularly since 2005, to being something more robotic, but incorporating human parts, but not usually skeletons, and they usually have to be living. There’s no saying what weapons/attributes these new ones have. And where do the dead bodies come in?

Will we see a cyberised Soldier Blue and Gretchen?

I loved the gradual reveal – the eye motif, the shout out to Tomb of the Cybermen, Missy’s comment about the skeletons being maintained in position by an exo-skeleton which is invisible because of the liquid, followed by Dr Chang putting his arm in the Dark Water. And the doors (as the Doctor says “I’m missing something obvious”!). Dr Skarosas, discoverer of the white noise message, is also a cyberman. And the Invasion riff as they walk down the steps of St Paul’s was great.

I can’t help feeling we’ve been misdirected though. As other people have said it would have been great not to have known it was the cybermen, but even a spoilerphobe like me couldn’t avoid it. They were among the first official images released and they’ve been all over the place in the last few weeks. Likewise the “Who is Missy” question. So what are we not seeing? 😈

I agree with @blenkinsopthebrave @phileasf and others that the nethersphere is not real. And I suspect they’ll drop a line next week to suggest that post death consciousness-still-attached-to-corporeal-body thing (probably) isn’t either (that’s just too horrific a concept!). There’s been lots of refs in this series to knowing what’s real – the Doctor’s insistence about Robin Hood not being real is paralleled in this story. He was wrong about Robin though.

We’ve also had mysterious behind the scenes machinations, feelings of being watched (which are now shown to be justified). And now dream inducing patches. People have mentioned Danny’s and Clara’s outfits, but what about the Doctor’s? Why does he wear the black sparkly jumper sometimes…? (Is the black jumper/white shirt this season’s red/blue bow tie, with jacket/no jacket? Am I overthinking this?!!)

What price is Clara willing to pay for Danny’s life? (Agree with @pedant – her sacrifice is going to be central. But maybe not resolved till the Xmas special).

Oh, and that line that @juniperfish highlighted – “do you think I care so little for you…” Just beautiful. And should completely put paid to any doubts that Capaldi’s version is very much the Doctor (even if you missed all the other “caring” bits in previous episodes)

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@thekrynoidman

Your post in Fan Creativity was very funny.  The Master/Missy kissed the Doctor, but it was very clearly not reciprocated – the Doctor is traumatised after 😉 I thought it was funny at the time and more so in retrospect, there are traditionally many layers to the Master’s motivations – could as easily be him being ironically playful as suggesting a longterm crush on the Doctor – whichever way you want to read it.

I think this has been skilfully handled – dropping the name Missy into the mix early on meant that lots of people guessed it, giving 10 weeks for the internet to bubble a bit and get used to the idea. I also like the idea for the slightly contradictory reason that we get a female Big Bad who isn’t actually female ie we get the massive plus of Gomez playing the baddie without her actually being the uber-female stereotype. And in the process, very possibly outMastering all the previous portrayals except for Delgado. (Apart from the mischievousness of the casting, she is certainly 1 of the best choices out there for the role).

(btw – I’m with you on short skirts – but there’s always the option of a full length maxi dress – not very practical admittedly, but fine for a photoshoot!!!)

@thommck Really pleased to hear how your 10yo reacted

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Still puzzling over the phone call and time sequencing at the beginning.  Clara from the future is intriguing idea.

And we’re back to phone calls again. As has been said – Clara prime’s first contact with the Doctor is through a phone call (the no provided by “the woman in the shop”). In that episode (Bells of St John) Clara was also uploaded to the internet (3Ws again – www). The Doctor got her back again, but she had acquired extra computer skills.

I loved the acting and direction in this. While Clara’s sense of dislocation could be part of a bigger plot, it also worked for me to convey the hurt and numbness of sudden bereavement. The world carries on (announcements, tribute flowers, even lovely Granny Oswald) while the bereaved feel frozen, a stone in a river that keeps on rushing past.

The volcano – a nod-back to Fires of Pompeii?

We’re certainly not done yet, and has been pointed out – there’s a massive amount to be covered in next week’s episode. Are we going to get a cliffhanger at the end of that, to lead in to the Xmas episode? I’m not yet convinced this is going to be all about cybermen.

Clara (and the audience) has still to find out that she has been used by Missy, and for what purpose. Or does Clara already know and is covering up? Has she/will she make a deal with the devil/Missy for Danny’s life?

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