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  • #61571
    nerys @replies

    @juniperfish I agree with you completely about Clara. Like you, I was blown away by her introduction in “Asylum of the Daleks” (which held so much promise, yet I think, in subsequent episodes did not deliver with that character quite as I’d hoped). I liked Clara, but I also found myself worn out by her. I kept wondering when I was going to get to relax with her, and that never happened, I think for many of the reasons you described. When Bill arrived on the scene, then I could relax with her and the Doctor.

    #61519
    nerys @replies

    @wolfweed It’s fair enough to challenge Davison’s viewpoint (But in a polite, constructive way). It’s not about winning – It’s about being kind.

    @jimthefish If we had recommends on here, you’d get a thousand for this comment.

    But yes the factionalisation of the whole debate is just horrible — and it’s what, I’m afraid to say, the Press seems to be doing more and more. We’re no longer allowed reasoned debate. It has to be House Stark vs House Lannister. Slytherin versus Gryffindor. Brexiter versus Remain. Cybernat versus Yoon. It’s not healthy and it’s degrading our society, I think.

    I also suspect that the whole issue of a female Doctor has been co-opted on both sides by groups who don’t really give a damn about the show either way but who are just using it as another means to fight their usual special-interest battles.

    Yes to this. You both have summed it up far more eloquently than I could. Society and its ills, along with reaction to this latest casting of our beloved Doctor; you’ve nailed it. Discussion is no longer allowed. It must be a debate, which implies a winner and a loser. In whose world is communication a contest? Why must anyone lose, when all we’re trying to do is express thoughts and and ideas, and learn from one another?

    #61518
    nerys @replies

    I will always see “Heaven Sent” as the episode that won me over to Peter Capaldi’s Doctor. It was just such a tour de force performance, and the fact that he carried the episode almost singlehandedly makes it even more impressive. It helped me see his entire run up to that point very differently, and I have appreciated him ever since. He’s had so many great speeches, but his speech on being kind in “The Doctor Falls” is one for the ages. I’ll miss him!

    #61516
    nerys @replies

    @miapatrick Sorry I’m so late on this, but congratulations! You amaze me!

    @missy Oh, and happy birthday, Missy!

    #61029
    nerys @replies

    I posted this on Doctor Who‘s Facebook page, so thought I would repeat it here:

    I am am intrigued by this casting. You’ve been signaling it all year, with Missy, so it comes as no great surprise. With Moffat & Co. leaving, we could see it was time for a clean start, much as Moffat did with Matt Smith’s Doc. So I’m looking forward to this.

    I will miss Peter Capaldi; I thought he did a fabulous (but underappreciated) job performing this role. I liked Jodie in Broadchurch, so I know she brings a good acting range to this role.

    BTW, folks should not claim to know who “the real fans” are. The opinions of real fans that I’m seeing are across the board. Many like this casting, others dislike it, while still others have adopted a “wait and see” attitude. While the casting may be controversial, there is no universal pro or con opinion on it. I am happy to give Jodie a chance. After all, I was so sad at David Tennant leaving the role that it took me a while to start watching Doctor Who again. And then I found myself surprised and delighted by Matt Smith. I learned my lesson. Let the work tell the story.

    #60842
    nerys @replies

    Hey, is her hair ginger? Wasn’t Matt Smith’s Doc always going on about wanting to be ginger? Finally got his … er, her wish!

    (Edit: Drat, @rorysmith beat me to it!)

    #60497
    nerys @replies

    @serahni I agree with you. I liked Rose, and admit that I did get a bit teary-eyed over some of the soap-ish plots involving her and the Doctor. And I ain’t no teenager. Wasn’t then, and certainly am not now. But I also found myself growing a bit weary of that, especially when Martha was sent down a similar road. Which is why I was so happy to have Donna arrive on the scene. No romantic entanglements or pining, just a solid, believable friendship. It was interesting to see something of a return to that tension between Amy and Raggedy Man, of only to be nipped in the bud once it was clear that Amy had chosen Rory.

    With Clara, it was sort of left up in the air as to whether she felt that kind of attraction to the Doctor. When Capaldi’s Doctor was introduced, it seemed important to address that directly. Hence, his comment to Clara of “I’m not your boyfriend,” followed by her reply of “I never thought you were.” And then he followed up with, “I never said it was your mistake.”

    #60491
    nerys @replies

    I just got a friendly invitation from “Alice” to go visit her page.

    #60490
    nerys @replies

    @rorysmith I loved the eyeliner moment, too! My favorite Missy/Master exchange was when they were asking the Doctor about all the different ways he’d died:

    MISSY: Well, we thought we might chuck you off the roof, but I wasn’t sure how many regenerations you had left.

    MASTER: Yeah, we could have been up and down the stairs all night.

    #60479
    nerys @replies

    You make some very good points, @tardigrade. The interesting thing is that as Missy firmly clasps the Doctor’s hand, the words she speaks indicate she will not stand with him. But maybe her gesture is “the other mind” side of it. That’s why these “layered” scenes are so good; the layers can lead to many different interpretations.

    #60469
    nerys @replies

    Someone may have already mentioned this, and so I apologize if I’m repeating an earlier post(s):

    Much attention has been given to Missy clasping the Doctor’s hand as they part ways for the last time. (Did she hand something off to him?)

    Near the beginning of the episode, right after Missy knocks out the Master with her umbrella, she tells the Doctor, “I was secretly on your side all along, you silly sausage!” He asks her, “Is that true? I need to know” and clasps her hand. She replies, “I’m in two minds. Fortunately the other one is unconscious.” And then the Doctor walks away to contact Nardole, while Missy steps back and looks unsettled.

    So I think this is why Missy clasps the Doctor’s hand as they part ways near the end. Without words, just this gesture, she is reassuring him that she is on his side.

    #60419
    nerys @replies

    @winston Well, at the end of “Empress of Mars,” Missy did asked the Doctor if he was all right. So maybe she has known all along that his regeneration was impending, and that’s part of why she decided to stand with him. Also, would she have somehow known that the Master would destroy her in the end? If so, then “without hope, without witness, without reward” is a lesson that finally came home to her.

    #60404
    nerys @replies

    @bluesqueakpip For me, “Face the Raven” worked precisely because of the reasons you say it didn’t work for you. Clara had escaped “certain death” so many times (and, of course, earlier on she didn’t … or versions of her didn’t) that it felt like she and the Doctor were always going to find a clever way out. Then – Boom! – she is undone by her own certitude, her conviction that she could save Rigsy by taking on his chronolock, which the Doctor would then be able to “fix” (as he had so many times before). Clara became complacent in her assumptions, and it was her undoing.

    #60338
    nerys @replies

    I watched the episode again, and now I remember why Hazran reminded me of The Woman. It’s early on in this episode, when she grabs a gun and runs for the porch. It was just her facial expression, which reminded me of a facial expression The Woman had (for the brief times we saw her).

    Another bit of recognition: When the Doctor is firing again and again on the Cybermen, there was a musical theme that harked back to “Heaven Sent” (where the Doctor is punching away at the wall of Azbantium, is overtaken by the Veil, then returns to the teleportation chamber and starts the cycle all over again, all to a voice-over of “The Shepherd Boy”). How many times has he fought the Cybermen, but like the bird, keeps chipping away till he breaks through? I’m not sure if that was Moffat’s intended symbolism, but it resonated with me.

    #60282
    nerys @replies

    I have enjoyed reading everyone’s posts. Thank you so much, as always, for shedding light on so many subtleties I missed the first time around.

    Earlier I mentioned that I saw a resemblance between Hazran and The Woman in “Hell Bent” (it could just be the presence of a barn in both episodes). Looking at photos now, they don’t look much alike, but when I saw Hazran, I immediately thought she looked like she could be a daughter of The Woman. And then I wondered what tricks were being played within the story.

    #60239
    nerys @replies

    @donnawho I felt that this Doctor wasn’t rebelling so much against dying; he knows he isn’t dying. But it’s more about changing … yet again. He doesn’t want to wear another face. He doesn’t want to change, he wants to stay as he is. And that certainly reverberates on a personal level. Many of us don’t want to change, but must. It’s reality. It doesn’t mean we welcome it.

    The most emotional part of this episode, for me, was Bill perceiving herself not as a Cyberman, but as herself. Utterly heartbreaking! I did a fist pump when Heather came to the rescue.

    By the way, am I the only one who noticed a resemblance between Hazran and the woman in the barn in “Hell Bent”?

    #60067
    nerys @replies

    @ichabod Big pictures, little words. That’s what I need.

    #60063
    nerys @replies

    @countscarlioni Thank you for that video! I think I will have to play it in slow-motion. My poor little mind still doesn’t quite get it. But I’m glad it helped my husband, and I do think it looks like an amazing movie.

    @thane15 Puro, I’m with you once again. It’s like I almost get it … then realize I don’t. Shades of algebra coming back to haunt me.

    #60009
    nerys @replies

    My husband tells me that the film, Insignificance, gives the clearest explanation (via Marilyn Monroe, no less) of Einstein’s theory of relativity that he’s ever heard. So I think I must put it on my watchlist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insignificance_(film)

    #59881
    nerys @replies

    @tardigrade Yes, that’s how my husband explained it to me. He’s a science guy, I am not (neither science nor guy), and so my understanding of this in the abstract is limited. Thanks for correcting me!

    #59824
    nerys @replies

    @geoffers Thank you for that explanation. My husband had to explain the black hole/time perception thing to me two different ways before I (sort of) got it on his second explanation. Abstract ideas and I have never got along very well.

    #59754
    nerys @replies

    @lisa I too am intrigued by the Master’s presence here, along with his future (?) regeneration as Missy. As you say, he seems to be “stuck” here and needing an escape hatch. Is that via the Doctor, and also Bill? Or are they the barriers to his freedom, and part of the reason he and the Doctor are at such an impasse? Interesting question. I guess we will find out how it’s resolved next week. Or maybe by Christmas.

    #59752
    nerys @replies

    @tardigrade I’ve lost track of who said it now, but I’ve got to agree that the initial scene with Missy was the weakest part. Much as I enjoy Michelle Gomez’s portrayal of Missy, this felt like she was channeling Captain Jack Sparrow, or was straight-up drunk (the distinction is slight). So a little too over the top for me, even allowing for Missy being cooped up for decades, glad to be out, and engaged in a test she feels is beneath her.

    But oh, how it stood in such stark contrast to the the fate awaiting Bill. Because I’d read some spoilers, I knew that Bill’s fate was to be devastating, but I had no idea it would come so early on in the episode. So as Missy was capering about with her “pets” (or whatever terms she gave them), I was relaxing a wee bit too much … then shocked at Bill’s seeming demise. So even though it was a bit campy, it worked for me because it blindsided viewers on what was to come.

    #59730
    nerys @replies

    @thane15 Oh yeah, I get you!

    I really must watch this episode again to fully absorb it. (Have I mentioned that I loathe the commercial interruptions on the Space Channel? Yes, I have. And I do.)

    One thing that struck me is that Bill’s fate is very much what I’d imagined for Clara, before we discovered what her true destiny was to be. I thought she was going to end up as Oswin, forever trapped inside a Dalek. But now we have the twist that it’s Bill, trapped inside a Cyberman. Someone mentioned that if they’d seen the “hospital” proceedings as a child, they would have been terrified. Same here. As an adult, I found them horrifying.

    Because of the spoilers regarding the Master, I actually recognized him almost right away. I’ve got a thing for facial recognition. Had I not read any spoilers, I would have been much slower to pick up on that. (That’ll teach me.) What an amazing interplay between Missy and the Master. My husband and I were trying to figure out how there could be two of them (same way we got multiple Doctors in The Day of the Doctor). Superb acting, and writing.

    And poor Bill. Gosh, I’m with the kids who adore her and are heartbroken by what’s befallen her. I want her to get a happy ending! Kudos to the sharp-eyed souls who think they spotted Heather looking out of one of the windows. Let’s hope that she and Heather are reunited … somehow.

    @missrori I too have wondered if Missy is somehow the key to saving Bill (but at a very steep price).

    So, two Masters. Does that mean we get two Doctors? The signs seem to be pointing in that direction.

    #59332
    nerys @replies

    @pedant Very good. Thank you for the reminder!

    #59330
    nerys @replies

    I’m probably bonkerizing on something completely obvious (as in, too obvious to be happening). But if they’re bringing back John Simm as the Master, then is it possible they’re bringing back David Tennant as the Doctor? What with Chibnall taking over the reins, and all? Nah! IMDb shows him as being pretty busy and committed to other projects for the forseeable future, so I know I’m reaching.

    #59328
    nerys @replies

    Interesting bit about the Doctor translating. I knew the TARDIS did a sort of auto-translation, so that everyone, whether human or alien (or humans of different languages or eras), understands one another. But how does that explain what happened last week on Mars, when the TARDIS was largely absent? How were Iraxxa and Friday able to understand the Brits, and vice versa?

    The other thing I was struck by was how willing the Doctor was to sacrifice himself as a gatekeeper. How fragile is his mindset now? Is he being affected not only by his many losses, but also by Missy’s state of mind? @blenkinsopthebrave I think you are right about the Doctor’s want or need of an escape hatch.

    @soundworld Thank you for your post! I enjoyed all the background information you presented, which clearly was researched as this episode was written, sets were created, etc. Such attention to detail is fascinating! (Oh, and I too love crows!)

    #59162
    nerys @replies

    In Canada, I am watching 19-2, a Canadian series (originally produced and aired in French, then developed separately in English). Stellar series, and not just because it’s Canadian. Season 1: superb window into the world of law-enforcement stress. Season 2, Episode 1, is one of the best (and most harrowing) things I’ve ever seen. Season 3 started out relatively quietly, then took a gut-wrenching turn for one of the characters. Season 4, yet to be aired, will, sadly, be the last.

    @blenkinsopthebrave Adam’s West’s Batman was my childhood hero. Life wasn’t complete without my weekly fix. Sad.

    #59124
    nerys @replies

    Wow! Amen to that, @pedant!

    #59118
    nerys @replies

    Initially I was not sold on Capaldi’s Doctor, but I decided to be patient, and over time he has won me over. Especially compelling for me was “Heaven Sent,” in which he delivered a tour de force performance.

    @blenkinsopthebrave I agree with you about the self-doubt. And maybe that’s why, for some, he isn’t their Doctor. Certainly Eccleston, Tennant and Smith all exuded a tremendous amount of confidence, each Doctor becoming more manic, almost brash, than his predecessor (though I often wondered if the “whirling dervish” style of Smith’s Doctor was meant to cover up moments of uncertainty).

    At any rate, Capaldi’s Doctor often hesitates, which the other post-gap Doctors (sorry, I’m not as familiar with the pre-gap ones) rarely did. That’s a distinguishing characteristic.

    I also agree with you about Missy, and had forgotten that we first met her at the end of “Deep Breath.” Throughout Capaldi’s run, his Doctor and Missy have been flip sides of the same coin.

    #59110
    nerys @replies

    @blenkinsopthebrave If you look at attempts to do those sorts of story construction elsewhere on TV, I would single out three examples: Babylon 5, The X-Files, and (the new) Battlestar Galactica. I have a real soft spot for Babylon 5, partially because of the way it married its long sci-fi arc with its referencing of fascist militarism and its discussion of the ethics of rebellion and taking up arms against your own government.

    My husband has a kindred spirit! He is currently watching the entire run of Babylon 5 on DVD. He watched it in his youth, and so has made a nostalgic return. I never watched it before, so I haven’t jumped on board as he has. But I’m glad he is enjoying it.

    The X-Files had have a recurring storyline with the mythology episodes. Personally, I tired of those as the series progressed and preferred the standalone episodes. Still do, as we watch this series in syndication. Even there, standalone episodes were mixed in with the mythology ones so that we weren’t plodding through one long, endless story loop. I can’t imagine that Doctor Who would work under that premise, but what do I know? If you’d suggested to me ahead of Matt Smith’s run that the Doctor would have a sort of “Peter Pan” relationship with his companion, I probably wouldn’t have bought that, either. Yet I loved the concept in the way that Moffat & Co. delivered it.

    #59109
    nerys @replies

    @ichabod Thank you for that additional explanation. It was something that stood out to me … and then, of course, the poor fellow got turned into a beach ball. As you say, his presence is a stretch (well, given their locale, the presence of all of them is a stretch), but not beyond the realm of possibility.

    #59098
    nerys @replies

    @thane15 Sadly, I kept my hopes up … only to have them dashed.

    @blenkinsopthebrave Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. I missed that article. Very enlightening! (Though I’m betting they were quoting Gatiss, not Davies, at the end of the article, since Gatiss is the only one quoted throughout.)

    Thanks to @wolfweed for posting this; here’s the link, in case anyone else missed it: Mark Gatiss admits protesting against black actor’s casting as Victorian soldier

    #59089
    nerys @replies

    As usual, I had to watch this episode twice before reflecting on it here. One thing that stood out to me was how visually convincing the Empress was with her very sharp teeth. Often such makeup/prosthetic/special effects artifacts look “put on” … but hers didn’t. I completely believed her as the creature she was.

    I apologize in advance for my ignorance: Would it have been historically accurate for a soldier like Vincey to be serving in a Victorian-era regiment?

    Also, I was so hoping Vincey would make it. He was looking forward to being reunited with his fiance, in a place that was so, so green. Yet he was tragically and selfishly sacrificed by Catchlove (whom I couldn’t help but call Francatelli, due to his recent showing in Victoria). That, for me, was the saddest part of the episode, and not really remarked upon. He was just gone.

    Another thought occurred to me: While it would have been quite amusing to have a portrait of Jenna Coleman’s Victoria, it would have caused no end of confusion for viewers who hadn’t caught both series. (“Man, Clara really did milk that last second of her life!”) Rather, they used a portrait of Pauline Collins’ Victoria, from the “Tooth and Claw” episode. Did anyone else catch the remarkable resemblance between Collins and Coleman? I instantly thought that Collins looked like Coleman would at the same age.

    #59010
    nerys @replies

    Thank you for this thoughtful discussion about depression. It really is a complex beast, and it helps to point out the differences between situational depression and clinical depression. People who know of, or have experienced, situational depression think that’s all there is. There must be a “cause” of it. Eliminate the cause, and you eliminate the depression. But with clinical depression, that’s irrelevant. Yes, there are triggers, but the reality is that clinical depression has no overt cause, other than genes, stress and the particular brain chemistry which produces it.

    Which raises an interesting question @thane15 alludes to: Who will heal the Doctor?

    #58805
    nerys @replies

    @missrori I agree that the Monks did pose a genuine, dreadful threat — they just seemed oddly easy to defeat after being near-invincible for two weeks.  And it was never really clear why they wanted to rule humanity; they didn’t have some master plan in mind.  Between that and the lack of personality, they weren’t the most compelling villains.

    The Monks were not very well “fleshed out” as villains, it’s true. However, didn’t Missy say they did this sort of thing just because they could? Taking over worlds is just their thing, as I recall. Not very compelling, but isn’t it a commentary on a certain president, who likes taking things just because he can? As in, “The game’s the thing.” Not an exact quote, of course, but it seems apropos. The conquest isn’t the most satisfying part; it’s the process of taking something (and, as we discovered, being “welcomed in” willingly, so there’s no real force involved).

    The Doctor, with Missy’s help, had to figure out how to conquer them, and that took time. It was only after consulting with Missy that realized Bill was the lynchpin, the only way to defeat the Monks. But that would come only at a huge cost, or so they believed, based on Missy’s information.

    #58799
    nerys @replies

    Finally had a second viewing just now. Wow, there’s so much I missed the first time around! I loved it even more this time. I can’t explain why I feel that way, while others feel let down. Maybe the holes aren’t as gaping to me as they are to others. Dunno.

    OK, to quickly address some observations made by other posters:

    Bill took her anger out on Nardole because the Doctor said the assassination ruse was Nardole’s idea.

    The Doctor said, “All the pictures I gave you. I thought I was just being kind, but I was saving the world.”

    As others have noted, it’s not so much “the power of love” that enables Bill to save the world, but her created memories (enhanced by the Doctor’s photos) that were so strong – a pure, uncorrupted, irresistible image, as the Doctor described it – that broke the Monks’ signal. “She’s a window on the world without the monks.”

    Some have said the Monks were not so threatening or dangerous, but I disagree. They erased people’s memories, rewrote history and enforced a passive acceptance of tyranny worldwide. Anyone who resisted was executed or sent to forced labor camps. That seems pretty dangerous to me … and also serves as a strong cautionary tale about our current state of affairs.

    Also, some have commented on Missy’s demeanor. One explanation for her muted behavior is that she’s in a state of depression, such as it is for Time Lords. So naturally her demeanor is different. Depression changes one’s personality, and not for the better. She’s not merrily sparring with the Doctor because she’s struggling with the loneliness and isolation he has imposed upon her. But it may be that her depression (rage directed inward) will eventually be turned outward. Time will tell (no pun intended).

    I love the Doctor’s “in amongst seven billion of you” response to Bill’s question about why he puts up with the human race. That’s his need for his human companions, in a nutshell.

    Peter Capaldi and Pearl Mackie were brilliant in this episode.

    #58673
    nerys @replies

    @lisa I shouldn’t have said the only one left. Maybe the one most readily available is a better way of putting it. But they were childhood friends, as I recall, and so maybe that’s why the Doctor feels compelled to try to save her. It certainly is a dysfunctional relationship, as you rightly point out.

    #58639
    nerys @replies

    I think the Doctor’s basic problem is that he is lonely for his own kind. Missy is the only one left, and so he keeps trying to save her … not just physically, but mentally/emotionally. The evidence seems to point to her being unsavable, yet I think the Doctor can’t help himself. He is compelled to keep on trying, very likely at his expense.

    #58606
    nerys @replies

    @blenkinsopthebrave You make some very good points. I was younger, only nine years old at the time, so I guess that’s why I’m thinking that episode was so difficult for me. I suppose I thought she could be rescued somehow. Reconstituted, or some such thing. That was not to be, and I found that very hard to accept. My older sister sort of laughed it off, so I supposed that older children and adults didn’t find it so horrifying. As your experience demonstrates, I was wrong about that! Like Doctor Who, Star Trek was geared toward a young audience, though adults watched, as well. That’s a difficult balance to maintain.

    #58601
    nerys @replies

    @mirime I have long felt that your explanation of why the forgetting happens is why it’s done. If people didn’t forget, then the world in which Doctor Who is set would be vastly different from the one we know. Which wouldn’t be an altogether bad thing, but it would be harder to relate to.

    @thane15 Puro, thank you for that reflection on repression. I actually think we see many signs of that in Doctor Who, with the humans and with the Doctor. But it’s not always spelled out, which leaves a lot to our imagination. I like that, even if I’m not always satisfied by the execution of that idea.

    Going back to other posters’ observations about children watching this show: I’m reminded of a Star Trek episode I watched as a child. At the beginning of this particular episode, a female crew member got turned into a sort of chalky rock cube, which the villain picked up and crushed into dust in his fist. I asked someone in my family, probably my older sister, “Does that mean she’s dead?” “Yup, she’s dead! She got crushed to death!” That horrified me. Maybe it seemed worse to me because she was female, and it wasn’t the sort of cartoonish fate that often befell the doomed red-shirted security officers. I can’t tell you how long I agonized over her fate, mulling it over in my mind and wondering what it would have felt like. And that was without it being explicitly spelled out in the dialogue. I think it would have been even worse, had the violence been more graphic and explicit.

    So yes, I agree that it’s wise to use restraint, bearing in mind that children are watching.

    #58576
    nerys @replies

    @nick The fact that it’s not the first time such forgetting was used as a plot device is explained plausibly, and I think far better than I could, by other posters like Puro. I find this explanation by @ichabod to be most compelling:

    There is that: this isn’t the targeted audience for Children of Men, it’s DW, where even showing a bit of gore is problematic.  They want to give the kids a scare, not horrify them into depression.  A certain amount of soft soap to glide over the rough bits is necessary for practical reasons.

    #58541
    nerys @replies

    @nick Ah yes, the passing student. I’d forgotten about that. But @pedant has a point with the list; this is not the first time it’s happened on Doctor Who. I’m not saying I’m completely sold on forgetting as a plot device, but for whatever reason it is a frequent occurrence in the Whoniverse.

    Hmmm, was this a three-parter? Speaking of forgetting … good grief, I’ve forgotten a lot. As I said in another thread, it’s been a crazy few weeks. Looking for things to settle down a bit now.

    #58523
    nerys @replies

    Hmmm, I guess I’ll have to watch the final scene again. I thought it was between the Doctor and Missy, but I must be forgetting something.

    Doctor Who almost always needs at least two viewings from me, because I find I often miss a lot on first viewing (not the least of which is because of those pesky commercials we have to endure on the Space channel, which really break up the flow of an episode; at least watching the DVR version, I can fast-forward through the commercials).

    #58518
    nerys @replies

    @wolfweed and @missrori I agree with you that one reason for dissatisfaction has to do with the episode’s time constraints. There’s only so much you can cram into a 40-minute episode without turning it into a three-parter. A two-parter may have been too short, while a three-parter might have felt like it was dragging things out. Dunno.

    @lisa I understand your comment about parts of this episode feeling a bit “cop out-ish”; I had that slight feeling, though perhaps not as strong as you did.

    It may be that the personal tragedy which coincided with the development of last week’s episode (mentioned in the “Pyramid at the End of the World” thread) interfered with the development of this week’s episode, as well. There’s so little that most of us know of the behind-the-scenes process.

    #58516
    nerys @replies

    @nick I fully understand the story wasnt about the details I’m seeking. I don’t know what you thought I expected to see I didn’t. I am merely suggesting that if you chose to have a global invasion and litter the world with physical evidence of that invasion (with the camps and possible deaths) have the creative bravery to live with the consequences rather than pretend it didnt happen.

    Sorry if I misinterpreted your comments, but I understood them to mean that you expected to see the details you are outlining, and were disappointed by their absence. I didn’t feel the writer pretended that those things didn’t happen, but rather sketched them in nebulous terms, leaving us to form the details in our own minds, while the storyline focused on what was happening between the Doctor and Bill (and also Missy).

    #58511
    nerys @replies

    Oops, earlier I wrote “sci-fi literalists”; what I meant to type was sci-fi purists. Too late for an edit.

    #58509
    nerys @replies

    @nick, I agree with @pedant that the kind of detail you’re seeking isn’t what the story was about. Yes, sci-fi literalists will want those details, and be disappointed if they’re not there, but I don’t consider Doctor Who to be strictly science fiction. It’s a combination of science fiction and fantasy, and has been throughout its run. As such, the stories follow sci-fi themes, but certain threads and details are often dropped due to the fantasy nature of the series. That didn’t start with Steven Moffat … and likely won’t end with him, either.

    For me, this story (as with most of the others) has a much tighter focus. It’s about the relationship between the Doctor and his companion(s), and how they solve the problems set before them. In this case, it was about how Bill was able to resolve a serious problem she created, out of her love for the Doctor. Society, while looming large in the overall scheme of things, is really peripheral in the details. I can accept that, but clearly not everyone can.

    #58501
    nerys @replies

    @serahni I too wondered where the TARDIS was through all of this. I suppose some might have considered it rather too MacGuffin-ish to have the TARDIS turn up and whisk Bill away from the Monks, thus breaking the connection. Maybe, for some reason not yet known to us, the Doctor needed Bill to overcome the Monks with her own mind, rather than solving the problem with a convenient getaway car. Perhaps it has something to do with Missy’s apparent desire to see another one of the Doctor’s “pets” (Missy’s term) destroyed. Rather than being destroyed, Bill prevailed.

    #58462
    nerys @replies

    So much misdirection in this episode. Or was it? We thought we were seeing a regeneration, only to find that it was an illusion. Then we thought we lost Bill, but her created memories of her mother saved the day. The only genuinely tragic figure was Missy, who now seems lost in her remorse. Or is she?

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