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  • #58461
    nerys @replies

    I’m quite late posting on this thread. Crazy few weeks, and now I can breathe a sigh of relief. I thought this was an amazing episode. Am I the only one (probably not) who would like to see a return of Erica, played by Rachel Denning? I thought she was utterly believable in her role, and how great that it was not at all about her stature, but simply who she is?

    #57809
    nerys @replies

    @devilishrobby I don’t suppose anyone has dared to mention the similarities between the veritas aliens and the Silence.

    I did notice that. I wonder if there’s an actual link, or it was just Moffat playing off one of his own characters. I loved this episode, though I admit to being not completely drawn into the “game” element of the story. Still, it allowed things to play out which otherwise would have been not fun, had they been real. They were not fun, as it was. I’m looking forward to next week!

    #57628
    nerys @replies

    @janetteb I like that suggestion. I am suspicious that all the claims that there is nothing complicated about Bill might be a deliberate mislead. Moffat cannot do simple. It isn’t in his DNA. There is certainly bit of a focus on Bill’s Mum. We keep seeing her image, which suggests it has some greater significance.

    I agree. I’ve always felt that Orson Pink’s existence was never sufficiently explained. He has the soldier man figurine, which he called a family heirloom. Certainly he is a descendant of Danny’s, and that could be it. But it would tie things together, at least for me, if he were a descendant of both Danny and Clara. However, that detail might have been lost in the shuffle, between Moffatt’s many “will she stay or will she go” rewrites for Jenna Coleman, after she decided to stick around through the end of Season 9.

    #57607
    nerys @replies

    Currently watching The Handmaid’s Tale (TV series). Very dark, as one would expect. But we had a small victory in the most recent episode, which felt uplifting. It’s all relative, of course.

    #57606
    nerys @replies

    Bill’s mother; lots of speculation going on about her (or, rather, the photo of her) looking like Clara. So could it be that Clara, suspended in her last moment of life and zipping around the universe in a TARDIS/diner, reconnects with Danny, gets pregnant and has his child (Bill’s mother), meaning that Bill is Clara’s and Danny’s granddaughter? Crazy, I know … yet it was suggested that the Doctor’s been lecturing at the university for 50 years. Timey-wimey!

    #57429
    nerys @replies

    What a red herring! We were led to believe that Bill was in grave danger, when really it was the Doctor (or at least his eyesight). I often find myself thinking he is invincible … which is a mistake. He’s not immortal; he’s just not human. I really love the return of creepy storylines this season. When it was the Doctor and Clara, I never really feared for their safety, but this season that feeling of security is gone. It very much reminds me of Tennant’s final season, which was one for the ages. This season is on track to give us a similar ride. I’m afraid my heart will be broken at the end.

    #57230
    nerys @replies

    @geoffers another “not supposed to ask” question: how did mere humans put those enormous chains on that giant creature at the bottom of the thames?

    I wondered the same thing. Then I decided, “Think pyramids!”

    Loved this episode. For me, it had the right level of creepiness, with a poignant ending between mother and son. I’m glad @mirime reminded us of that comment the landlord made to the Doctor about being old, so he’d have less energy and wouldn’t last long. That gives a lot more credence to Bill’s roommates surviving their experience.

    David Suchet was remarkable. In that last scene, his character dissolved from an old man into a little boy, right before our eyes. No special effects needed; it was all acting, all utterly convincing. Bravo!

    Bill is quickly moving to the top of my list of favorite companions. And her interactions with the Doctor were quite fun to watch. And we get a few more clues in that pesky mystery of who’s in the vault. A piano player, no less!

    #57176
    nerys @replies

    @whisht Thanks, I was the one who asked the question about the sinking boot. Good answer!

    @fivefaces I loved “Midnight” … so I would be impressed if that were the being kept in the vault.

    #57174
    nerys @replies

    @ichabod I must not have any standards, either. I too have loved Capaldi’s magician’s coat, the guitar, the sunglasses, the “fading rock star” aspects of this Doctor. Why wouldn’t he explore that aspect of musicality merged with personality? It seems so very Doctor-like, to play with human personae and see if they fit.

    #57011
    nerys @replies

    @idiotsavon I agree that in this episode, Bill seemed very much a callback to Donna in The Fires of Pompeii. She has reminded me of Donna in several ways. Good catch!

    Something caught my eye at the very beginning of the episode, after the Doctor and Bill did their wardrobe change. The Doctor bumps into a street vendor with a basket of produce. The vendor drops his basket of produce, which spills over the bridge and disappears under the ice. As the shot goes beneath the surface, we see a shoe drifting down, until finally it reaches the monster’s mouth. Where did the shoe come from? I thought we’d see bits of produce drifting down, instead.

    #57004
    nerys @replies

    I am loving this season! It all boils down to the relationship between the Doctor and his companion. The Doctor and Bill have a wonderful, very believable rapport. I am enjoying watching these two learn about each other.

    This was Bill’s first insight into the fact that traveling with the Doctor isn’t a walk in the park (with a few thrills along the way). She struck by the knowledge that not only has he witnessed a lot of death, but he’s been responsible for some of it, too. Her shock was palpable. But then, she (like the Doctor) decides to “move on.” In watching and listening to the Doctor, she is exposed to more context, and realizes that he would not kill easily or without a compelling reason to do so. Justice is not always kind, especially to the innocent, but he is doing his best to keep that balance in check. I enjoyed watching Bill learn this over the course of the episode, without being hit over the head with it. Good stuff.

    I also want to praise the beautiful piano-themed music in this episode, which caught my attention from the get-go. Murray Gold’s soundtrack compositions are always great, but this one stood out to me.

    #56708
    nerys @replies

    I was OK with how Broadchurch ended. I felt the third season was vastly better than the second, and close to the level of the first. I also think it successfully replicated the theme of the first season by showing how the tentacles of one act reach out and destroy so many lives. For me, the ending was mostly satisfying. I will miss Hardy and Millaaah!

    #56649
    nerys @replies

    @thane15 Yes, Donna! Wasn’t she wonderful? It’s interesting to me how a resident comedian (and I hadn’t seen much of her work in Aus) can do drama so very well. I recall her shock and misery at the existential pain and singing of the Ood and how the Doctor couldn’t transcend that unified voice. For him it was always there. Donna could project humour and awe beautifully. I think Tennant’s final season was so successful because of her, in part. When she lost the memories of her experience it was like death…

    Puro, you have pinpointed exactly what I loved about Donna. It was her openhearted humanity, and how deeply she felt for, respected and cared about other beings. Yet by contrast she had a fun, jaunty relationship with the Doctor, one that wasn’t weighed down, as Rose’s and Martha’s were, by expectations of reciprocity. My heart still aches at the erasure of Donna’s memories with the Doctor. All these years later, I still find myself wanting her memories to be restored, even though according to Tennant’s Doc, it’s impossible. Donna can’t carry those memories in her mind and live. But it also means she is robbed of all the experiences which made her realize her own greatness.

    #56648
    nerys @replies

    For those of us with hearing loss, the problem goes beyond general annoyance. For me, the consonants are already missing somewhat, so the failure to pronounce them only compounds my problem. Hearing aids help, but of course they can’t replace the hearing that’s lost; they only augment whatever hearing the individual has.

    When people realize you have hearing loss, they tend to shout … then look baffled when you still don’t understand what they’re saying. All shouting does is pump up the volume. But if portions of the speaker’s pitch stray beyond the listener’s range, or the “punctuation” provided by consonants is missing, what we hear is a lot of verbal mud, with the occasional clearly understood word thrown in.

    #56619
    nerys @replies

    @marktwainsghost Oddly enough, I am seeing some similarities between Bill and Donna… it’s more like a feel for the show instead of direct comparisons. There is no hope of sexual tension with either, no special powers, a sense of wonder, and both seek out danger with a joy few would have.

    I agree completely. I find the relationship between Capaldi’s Doc and Bill, and Tennant’s Doc and Donna, to be quite similar. I mentioned last week that as much as I enjoyed Clara, it’s also a relief to have a companion who is not a mystery to be solved (thanks @morpho). She is simply there, absorbing everything and learning as she goes. I didn’t realize how much I’d missed that till last week’s “The Pilot” season premiere. I really enjoy the rapport she and the Doctor are building.

    (Off-topic, but since I mentioned Tennant: I’m bracing myself for tonight’s Broadchurch series finale, which is only now airing in Canada. I also just binge-watched the third season of The Fall. Like Broadchurch, I felt The Fall redeemed itself in the third season, but in a very different style, and one that I’m not sure I cared for. Yet it was better than the second season, so that’s something. Broadchurch, on the other hand, managed to reinvent itself … yet stay true to itself. No small feat … as we know with our beloved Doctor Who!)

    #56502
    nerys @replies

    @theconsultingdoctor I wasn’t expecting this to be such a creepy episode, I guess going a bit back to Moffat’s early writing style. As much as I dislike horror, this episode was enjoyable. It wasn’t overdone. There were plenty of good jokes and also a few sweet, emotional scenes as well.

    I agree. That’s part of what I meant when I mentioned what I’d missed during the Clara era. It was as if Clara knew or intuited so much that much of the mystery, and also the creepiness, was missing. It was a pleasant surprise to see that pop up in this episode.

    One of the things I love about Bill is that her point of view is slightly askew, compared to that of previous companions. She asks questions and frames ideas in ways the Doctor doesn’t expect because no other companion has her unique take on things (just as she doesn’t have theirs). It must be difficult to come up with new and fresh ways for a companion to behave, but so far Moffat & Co. have managed to pull it off!

    @missy I too have had cataract surgery (both eyes … done separately, of course). Initially the recovery is not much fun, but the thing I noticed immediately after my first surgery was that suddenly the world appeared to me in bright, vivid Technicolor. I’d grown so used to see the world through a white fog, which diminished color, that it was a shock to see the world back in color again. I didn’t realize how much eyesight I’d lost till it was restored again, and the contrast was so dramatic. It wasn’t as dramatic when I had my right eye done a few months later, but it was still noticeable. Hopefully you will experience the same dramatic improvement.

    #56449
    nerys @replies

    @pedant Ah, thank you! It’s what we would refer to as “gutting” a wall.

    #56438
    nerys @replies

    @miapatrick … walking into the Tardis and looking around, ‘a knock through’ is the most logical explanation.

    That reminds me: What is a “knock through”? I know what the phrase means, as a verb, but Bill’s use of it as a noun puzzled me. It must be British slang for something, but I have no idea what, and Google is of no help here.

    #56393
    nerys @replies

    @bluesqueakpip Yeah, I thought the TARDIS was automatically translating every language, alien or otherwise, into English so that the English-speaking listeners on hand would understand it. So doesn’t it stand to reason that would apply to acronyms, as well? It’s just a more sophisticated “translation” of words that fit a particular meaning to their corresponding (pronounceable, as a word) initials.

    @redlemons but you guys are way beyond me.

    I felt that way upon joining, but the thing I’ve learned is that most everyone fits in here. As long as we love Doctor Who, behave reasonably and don’t go on the attack, we’re all equally welcome. Each individual brings a unique perspective to the table. I love the passionate and thoughtful discourse we find here!

    #56384
    nerys @replies

    @ wolfweed A disturbing thought just occurred. What has Leonard (Nardole) just done in the TARDIS loo (that should maybe be left for a while)? Presumably he’s a cyborg (robotic apart from the head) so has he dropped some smelly ball bearings in there or what?!?

    Good question! I wonder if he just used it to dispose of some sort of other waste (not sure how it would be generated, or by whom) on the TARDIS, since he was not suspecting that a human might actually need to use it in the near future? So not his waste, necessarily, but some other type of waste, and the loo was a convenient place to dump it.

    #56382
    nerys @replies

    @kharis I hadn’t even considered Paul McGann. Wouldn’t that be a wonderful redemption for him? I know he’s had other Doctor Who outings since that awful TV movie, but it would be so cool to see him fully realized as The Doctor. However, I suspect that given the unfair complaints about Peter Capaldi’s age, they’re looking for someone younger.

    @bluesqueakpip I’d love to see Rory Kinnear in the role. Hey, BBC, it’s not too late to consider him now!

    @jimthefish Coupled with the fact that Broadchurch 3 hasn’t inspired me with any more confidence in Chibnall’s show-running, I’m increasingly expecting an approaching age of extremely vanilla Who. Perfectly willing to be proved wrong though.

    See, I feel just the opposite. If we were talking Season 2, I’d agree with you completely. But Season 3 has restored my faith in his abilities. I know this is highly subjective, of course. Different strokes, and all.

    #56363
    nerys @replies

    @geoffers but he does remember donna, quite well, and the moment when he decides not to mind-wipe her memories was a call back to that, methinks…

    I think it’s also in direct response to Bill’s remark to him, about how he would feel if someone did that to him. Which, of course, is exactly what happened. Somehow he feels that resonance, the emotional echo of Clara. He knows of her factual existence, but all details of his familiarity with her have been erased. He knows that, and lives with that void, so he realized it’s not something he should do to anyone else. Not anymore, unless that person is fully prepared to pay the price … which Donna was not prepared to do.

    #56362
    nerys @replies

    @ichabod Gods, I hope you’re right!  I don’t think BC 3 has shown up here yet —

    In Canada I’ve been watching it on the Bravo channel.

    #56361
    nerys @replies

    @marianne Love it, thank you!

    #56307
    nerys @replies

    @kharis Actually, the EW article wasn’t a review, but rather got into some spoiler-ish territory about the season finale, which then, predictably enough, led to some “good riddance”-style Facebook comments from some. Those comments were what I was replying to, mentioning, among other things, Capaldi’s acting tour de force in “Heaven Sent,” along with his stellar work in last night’s season premiere. Which then prompted the “run of the mill” comment by someone else. Bleh!

    @redlemons I’ve had the same thing happen. Here in Canada, hubby and I were watching the last few episodes of the Doctor Who marathon running up to last night’s season premiere. On first viewing, I loved “Heaven Sent” but was a little underwhelmed by “Hell Bent” (I think because I was expecting the same sort of narrative flow and intensity). But watching it again last night, I felt and appreciated “Hell Bent”‘s emotional resonance. So sometimes it just takes time … and multiple viewings.

    #56296
    nerys @replies

    Someone responding to my Facebook comment on an Entertainment Weekly article called this episode “run of the mill” for introducing a companion. Hard to imagine that being someone’s opinion, but there it is. Someday I shall learn to stop responding to such comments.

    #56268
    nerys @replies

    @thane15 I just read through the comments in this thread. Your mum’s comments have been in the back of my mind ever since she posted them. The last thing she should feel is embarrassment (though I think I understand why she would feel that way). We are all thrilled she has not shuffled off this mortal coil! How wonderful it is to know that improved treatments are making that possible.

    #56267
    nerys @replies

    One other thing I noticed, and others have remarked on this, is the sense of awe and wonder pervading this episode. With Clara, I often felt that was missing, simply because she knew so much. As a result, we in the audience did, too. With Bill, we’re back to everything being new again, with the sense of surprise smacking her (and us) in the face. It’s refreshing to have that back!

    #56234
    nerys @replies

    I was completely swept away by this episode introducing us to the Doctor’s delightful new companion. I agree with @jimthefish that this was the best introduction of a companion since Amy, probably my favorite of all the intros thanks to its Peter Pan whimsy. Pearl Mackie made her portrayal of Bill seem effortless … when I’m sure it was anything but. I would love to see her beyond this season. And Peter Capaldi was wonderful! Since his introduction, I have felt a tension (probably manufactured by me, and not real world at all) in trying to resolve his Doctor’s relationship with Clara; that tension seemed to overshadow so many of the episodes. I loved Clara, and was sad to see Jenna Coleman go, but I admit that tonight felt like a breath of fresh air. As so many of you have noted, I have a feeling that this season is going to be a tough one for me, with so many favorites signing off at the end. Well, it looks like we’re in for a great run, so I’m going to enjoy it while it lasts.

    (Speaking of endings: This third and final season of Broadchurch gives me much more confidence in Chris Chibnall taking over the reins. The first season was brilliant, the second disappointing, but in my opinion this season has restored the series to its former brilliance. So I feel like post-Steven Moffat Doctor Who is in very good hands.)

    #55642
    nerys @replies

    Heartbroken to read this news … sorry about that.

    I am reminded of my favorite poem by e. e. cummings:

    since feeling is first
    who pays any attention
    to the syntax of things
    will never wholly kiss you;

    wholly to be a fool
    while Spring is in the world

    my blood approves,
    and kisses are a better fate
    than wisdom
    lady i swear by all flowers. Don’t cry
    – the best gesture of my brain is less than
    your eyelids’ flutter which says

    we are for each other; then
    laugh, leaning back in my arms
    for life’s not a paragraph

    And death i think is no parenthesis

    #55641
    nerys @replies

    I just finished The Orphan Master’s Son by Adam Johnson. An amazingly detailed novel about a place of which we know so little, and quite apropos for the times in which we live.

    @craig Heartbroken to read this new about your wife. Beautiful photo, and I’m sure memories of her to match. I wish I could offer more words of comfort, but words do so little. You are in my thoughts.

    #55609
    nerys @replies

    <div class=”_5x46″>Trump now: “The FAKE NEWS media (failing @nytimes, @NBCNews, @ABC, @CBS, @CNN) is not my enemy, it is the enemy of the American People!”</div>
    <div id=”js_c0″ class=”_5pbx userContent” data-ft=”{"tn":"K"}”>

    Trump then: “If there’s one thing I’ve learned from dealing with politicians over the years, it’s that the only thing guaranteed to force them into action is the press — or, more specifically, fear of the press.” (attributed to Donald Trump in “The Art of the Deal” by Donald Trump and Tony Schwartz, page 305)

    Makes your head spin, doesn’t it?

    It’s been a weird year … already. I find myself agreeing with people I never imagined I’d agree with. Before the U.S. presidential election, Jeb Bush described Trump this way: “He’s a chaos candidate. And he’d be a chaos president.” His observation was spot on. I believe Trump thrives on creating chaos, and watching everyone scatter. Trump’s press conference from the other day is just the latest in a relentless series, and we’re only a month into this administration. Bizarro World.

    </div>

    #55608
    nerys @replies

    Trump now: “The FAKE NEWS media (failing @nytimes, @NBCNews, @ABC, @CBS, @CNN) is not my enemy, it is the enemy of the American People!”

    Trump then: “If there’s one thing I’ve learned from dealing with politicians over the years, it’s that the only thing guaranteed to force them into action is the press — or, more specifically, fear of the press.” (attributed to Donald Trump in “The Art of the Deal” by Donald Trump and Tony Schwartz, page 305)

    Makes your head spin, doesn’t it?

    It’s been a weird year … already. I find myself agreeing with people I never imagined I’d agree with. Before the U.S. presidential election, Jeb Bush described Trump this way: “He’s a chaos candidate. And he’d be a chaos president.” His observation was spot on. I believe Trump thrives on creating chaos, and watching everyone scatter. Trump’s press conference from the other day is just the latest in a relentless series, and we’re only a month into this administration. Bizarro World.

    #55440
    nerys @replies

    I just finished binge-watching Westworld. Whoa! It’s going to take me a while to unravel all of that.

     

    #55360
    nerys @replies

    @missy Well, his Brutus is not likely to be Steve Bannon, who scares me even more than Trump, and who seems to be the one in charge of this show. I too am sick to death of Trump … yet I know of people who are thrilled with him and what he is doing, and also irate with all the “fuss” being made. Those who oppose him are characterized as “sore losers” (as if losing were the only reason to oppose someone and what they are doing). I’d hoped against hope that he would be a better president than candidate, but those hopes have been for naught.

    #55358
    nerys @replies

    I will miss Peter Capaldi … but if Ben Whishaw is to be his replacement, then my mourning will be brief.

    #55206
    nerys @replies

    I’ve been watching Victoria and cheering on our Jenna Coleman. The beauty of it is that right now, Jenna can play a wide age range, and do it believably. Jenna is wonderful, as I knew she would be, but I really have to erase my mental image of the older Queen Victoria in order to imagine her in this role. I’m also torn on whether I think the series good, despite Jenna’s superb acting. It’s a wee bit too soap opera-ish for my tastes, especially in its treatment of her relationship with Lord Melbourne.

    And one pivotal piece of the story is missing. I know it’s not a documentary, but as luck would have it, my husband and I just watched Fit to Rule: How Royal Illness Changed History. It mentioned a period prior to Queen Victoria’s reign in which she was doing a public tour of England, became ill with a fever, but still withstood pressure from her mother and Sir John Conroy to make Conroy her personal secretary. That part was missing, along with a clearer picture of the Kensington System invented, invented by Victoria’s mother and Conroy largely to isolate Victoria during her childhood and make her submissive to them. I would have liked to have seen an installment based on this earlier conflict, because I think it would have served to show, rather than tell, why Victoria loathed Conroy.

    #55204
    nerys @replies

    Commiserating and seeking solace with my fellow Whovians over Herr Trump. I had no idea there might be a literal link, not just a perceived one, between Brexit and Trump, but this article posits that unsettling bridge via Big Data:

    Trump Knows You Better Than You Know Yourself

    #55039
    nerys @replies

    OK, after watching this on my DVR, fast-forwarding through the commercials, I enjoyed it much, much more! I loved the lighthearted nature of the episode, but with some seriousness regarding River, relationships and everything ending. But I also loved what the Doctor said about beginnings being good, so enjoy them.

    #54940
    nerys @replies

    And now her mother is gone. 🙁

    #54926
    nerys @replies

    Yup, another immensely talented soul … gone. I knew he was something special, so much more than his “pretty boy” marketing image, when I heard “Careless Whisper.” That song has chops, and so did he for writing and singing it. The other reminder I recall was when Queen put together that tribute concert to Freddie Mercury. I always knew Freddie had an amazing voice, but it really showed with all the singers who struggled to hit those notes, and couldn’t manage to pull it off. All but one. George Michael was brilliant. Not only did he nail the notes, he captured Freddie’s spirit in his delivery. It was mesmerizing.

    The man had his personal problems, but it sickened me to watch the schadenfreude of many in the media, who seemed to delight in tearing him down. Rest in peace, George. You’ve earned it.

    #54925
    nerys @replies

    I’m feeling a bit underwhelmed by this one. Dunno why. Here in Canada, we are forced to watch it with commercial interruptions, which always take away from my enjoyment of Doctor Who. So I will try watching it again and fast-forwarding through those pesky interruptions. My favourite of the newer Christmas specials is “Last Christmas”; I didn’t think it would be, but on repeat viewings it’s the one with with the most emotional staying power, for me. “The Husbands of River Song” felt too frantically paced, though the last 10 minutes were utterly charming and mostly made up for it, at least for me. Another viewing of “Return of Doctor Mysterio” might well improve it. But how I do miss watching these episodes, completely sans commercials, on Netflix!

    #54873
    nerys @replies

    @pedant Thank you for this update. I too was on the “concerned” list.

    #54863
    nerys @replies

    @missy Post-surgery, I really don’t need my glasses for anything except reading text close-up. So I ended up with an expensive pair of reading glasses. My eyesight is the exact opposite of what it was before surgery. I was nearsighted (couldn’t clearly see things far away) before, and now I’m farsighted (can’t clearly see things close up).

    @mudlark You’re at the stage I was at prior to my surgery. I was very cautious about where/when I drove, and I tried to avoid driving at night, especially because of the extreme glare from headlights and even streetlamps. My night vision still isn’t what it should be, but that may be the result of approaching 60 more than anything else.

    #54845
    nerys @replies

    @missy Best wishes on the cataract surgery. I’ve had both eyes done. My surgeon was perplexed at how quickly mine developed. Cataracts are supposed to be slow growers, but mine became a problem within a year, after my previous year’s eye exam showed no cataracts. As my husband drove me to the hospital for my first surgery, I covered my “good” right eye, just to see how bad the eyesight in my left (the one being operated on) was. A red car was approaching in the opposite lane. With my right eye covered, I couldn’t see it. So I got the surgery not a moment too soon. My surgeon was going to hold off on the right eye, but then, at my insistence, he had that eye checked, and it had already deteriorated noticeably from my appointment just a few months earlier. As @mudlark says, the post-cataract contrast in vision is startling. Colours are so much more vivid. The world is suddenly in Technicolor!

    #54032
    nerys @replies

    I can’t remember if this is where we had the discussion about Doctor Who no longer being carried by Netflix, but it has indeed disappeared from my Netflix Canada lineup. However, it looks like past seasons are being carried by Crave TV.

    #54031
    nerys @replies

    @blenkinsopthebrave

    You are not alone. I received a similar flirtation in my message inbox.

    #52946
    nerys @replies

    @pharellman Re: Clara, I feel just the opposite. I loved her Oswin incarnation in Asylum of the Daleks, then felt they didn’t quite know what to do with her when they paired her up with Matt’s Doctor. I liked her, but felt her character was rather anemic when compared with the little spitfire who was Oswin. Then, as Seasons 8 and 9 unfolded, I felt her character was vastly better written, giving Jenna more to work with as an actor. But I also realize there is quite a lot of disagreement among fans on Clara … and this is just one more of those points.

    #52933
    nerys @replies

    @ichabod I didn’t see it as being such a wonderful, romantic ending. Not at all. I found it tragic, and a huge loss of someone who had so much worth, so much to give.  I also saw the ending as an indictment of mental health “care” at that time, and also Victorian society’s treatment of women. I didn’t see any real redeeming feature in it, other than that Vanessa was finally at peace. The tragedy is that this is what it took to give her that peace.

    I know the story was about Vanessa saving the world by sacrificing herself, but for me the other layers were more powerful, and captured my attention far more. The thing is, once you release a piece of art out into the world, it goes from being a form of self-expression to being interpreted by others. What it is is whatever people interpret it to be. In some ways that’s wonderful, but in other ways it can be very strange to hear or read others’ take on the same work. Come to think of it, it can be strange to hear or read the creator’s take on it. There have been many times when I’ve read a writer talking about something s/he’d written, after I read it, and then thinking, “Oh. So that’s what was going on. I had no idea!”

    #52917
    nerys @replies

    @ichabod So true. The willingness to agree to disagree is in short supply on the Internet, and elsewhere. I’ve seen enough flame wars to don my flame-retardant suit (even though I know none is needed here).

    Staying with what transpired on Penny Dreadful, I guess I felt that the ending followed the overarching theme of this season: how the Victorian era dragged so many women, including extremely capable women, through the dirt and ground them into submission … one way or the other. A possible allegory, I thought, is that this is an outcome from horrific “treatment” (and I use that term very loosely) of mental illness. For me those ideas were intertwined throughout this entire season. So I would expect that anyone wanting Vanessa to emerge victorious from this would be bitterly disappointed. Certainly a part of me was hoping for that, but given the way the series was headed this season (especially when we got that little ray of hope at the end of the season opener, which I felt certain was a red herring), I wasn’t holding out any hope. For me, this was what was so powerful. This is what the world did to women. Still does, in many cases.

    As for the horrors of the real world … ugh. I can’t even imagine Trump as president, yet it could possibly become a reality. Quite frightening, and this is coming from a U.S. citizen. I’m relieved to be living in the relative sanity north of that border.

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