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@fonsini

You doubtless have many interesting and thoughtful things to post.

Please feel free to start.

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@arbutus – ah, yes.I think you are right.

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Incidentally – I can’t remember exactly when now – but at some point I am fairly sure that Clara said “I’m sorry – I’m so so sorry”.

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@purofilion

There are two

Fantastic Voyage (Raquel Welch as Clara)

Innerspace (Meg Ryan as Clara)

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@bluesqueakpip

 I thought the ‘he might be a duplicate’ was a reference to the Dalekised humans from Series 7.

Oh, absolutely – but they were described as conversions before, not duplicates. (It may be nothing, just something that didn’t get picked up in the edit, but duplicates + Cyborgs (or rather orgcybs) made of spare parts + a possibly virtual heaven brings Moff’s fascination with duality, reality and identity to the fore again.)

@cpgolfer

 I really don’t like the bias the show’s writers have against the military.

It is an error to confuse writers with characters – this Doctor was a soldier in the longest and most destructive war in the history of the universe – a war the compromised his very sense of self and left him traumatised for centuries – and has earned the right to hold whatever views he likes about war and warriors.

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@scaryb

Why couldn’t/didn’t the TARDIS save Journey’s brother?

1. Because he was already dead? (The obvious)

2. Because Clara is really the Tardis and is in urgent need of a shag? (The bonkers)

3. Because Stephen Moffat is a sexist pig and only women need saving? (the Twitter hypothesis)

4. Because Missy is Up To Something? (The convoluted)

33/1 Bar these.

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Retcon alert: “He might be a duplicate” (as opposed to a conversion).

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@deadmeat3171

here ya go

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@mightbesherlock (but probably not)

This is serial storytelling in which a key – but actually rather limited – antagonist can’t be ejected. Revisiting is rather difficult to avoid (it has proved even harder for the Cybermen, ‘cos they don’t even get to squawk “Exterminate!”).

This was an interesting riff which is clearly not done with just yet.

Moffat has more original ideas in his head than anybody who can list things by rote.

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Well that was cerebral.

In more ways than one (all of them good)

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@bivium6

watching Clara & the Doctor

It was actually the Ponds and the Doctor initially.

You need to be a little carefully, following the great dreamcatcher debacle of Season 6 – Moffat likes to chuck theme-y cruft in as stylistic flourishes, rather than clues. That may apply to the POV shots.

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No particular hook to hang this on, but the “it’s too obvious to the Master, Moff would never be so obvious” meme, that I’ve seen few times, rather airbrushes out of history that it was screamingly obvious that Amy was River’s mum.

However, I do also recall quite a bit of theorising of the bonkers variety around the number of shots that were constructed from a computer’s point-of-view (especially in DOAS and TPOT). That’s not come to anything. Yet.

I do get the sense (although I have no specific evidence) that something very surprising and possibly shocking is planned for the relationship between the Doctor and Clara.

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@silverman

We then had Matt Smith’s Doctor zipping all over his timeline to free himself from the Pandorica

And that ended up with the universe needing to be rebooted…

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(Unlike my favourite bugbear, the Giant Stompy Robot)

That was (obliquely) explained by the crack (in Victory of the Daleks, I think).

Remember, this is Moffat – you may get one line of dialogue to deal with a loose thread, but you won’t get a load of exposition to expalin every offence to the fanboys 😉 ). See also when Amy got gangerised.

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@silverman

I probably shouldn’t over-exam a sci-fi programme, but the dinosaur irked me for a couple of reasons, and mainly that it presented Vastra as ‘knowing the truth’ that dinosaurs used to be that size…when they weren’t.

That was – to me fairly clearly – a joke, partly on the “squabbling couple” them that ran through the episode, but also a tongue-in-cheek meta-comment about what makes good evidence. Vastra was “a little girl” when she last saw one – and everything look bigger when you are little.

As has been noted upthread, the dinosaur was a reference to Bleak House.

(I am too long a slave to Buffy to be willing to tolerate anything but an arc-heavy story, but remember that this is a show that has to fill the needs of a very large and diverse constituency.)

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@fivefaces

‘the Doctor is basically a bad person’ idea that M0ffat seems to have been pushing;

Sorry – have no clue what the basis for this assertion is.

The idea that Moffat has explicitly stated is that the bad people don’t know they are bad, but I don’t see the opposite as a corollary – the Doctor is always wracked with doubt, even if he would die rather than let it show. When alone he can become dangerously impulsive (as Amy and River both pointed out), which is why he seeks companionship.

Where does the notion that Moffat sees the Doctor as bad come from?

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@tardis-pilot

But don’t try to label me a troll because you disagree

You are being labelled a troll because that is what you are – either that or you have the shortest attention span in the known universe and the memory of particularly advanced case of Alzheimer’s – you can remember things from over thirty years ago, but not the previous episode. Classic Alzheimer’s.

Perhaps if you actually tried watching the show occasional you would not look quite such an imbecile.

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@phoebe-phire I think you need to treet yourself to the DVD sets (all of your questions are addressed on them) and, if you have access (sorry, not sure where you are) the  BBC site http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006q2x0 and browse the minisodes.

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@phoebe-phire @Barnable

The Doctor was fully aware that Clara expected him to die – and was wholly unaware that it was Clara’s plea to the Time Lords that turned things around. He would expect her to be confused and scared and it was in his nature to reassure (“under my protection”) – but also,  he knew how important Amy’s message to him, via the novel, was to his healing when he lost them (especially the bit about never being alone). “There’s a little girl waiting in a garden.”

Not quite as TL;DR as expected version: It was in character for 11 to make such a call for all sorts of complex but entirely in-story reasons. Mostly becuase he has grown up from “I always rip out the last page of a book. Then it doesn’t have to end. I hate endings!”

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@whisht @thommck I tried holding my breath along with Clara and couldn’t remotely keep up with her. She must have lungs the size of a tank!

The “waiter” explicitly complemented Clara on her lungs.

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@thommck

I have always been a fan of Clara but (seemingly in contrast to other people) in this episode she confused me. Surely she should be the most comfortable with the Doctor changing faces, she has seen into his soul and watched through his whole lifespan, why was she so unable to accept his new superficial look? She seemed like a different character completely. I know from the 50th anniversary special we are meant to understand she doesn’t really remember much about the whole Claricle thing but it just didn’t gel with me that her character would be so distraught about the Doctor’s change.

Clara isn’t a Claricle, she is Clara – the seed-stock for the Claricles, yes, but she is also a discrete person. Yes, she had a trip through 1-11’s time line and will intellectually understand the notion of regeneration. But that no more prepares you for the reality than knowing that a close friend is dying of cancer prepares you for the moment:

Buffy: Was it sudden?

Tara: No….yes….It’s always sudden

Anyhoo…

Was a little uncomfortable with the retcon of the De Pompadour class being time ships (they clearly weren’t in GITF), but can rationalise it as a design defect in over-engineered repair-bots making them so by default.

Definite echoes of Vincent and The Doctor in the Doc’s unconscious ravings.

Posing Jenny was a comic delight.

If Missy isn’t the Master I will eat a marmite sandwich (aka Satan’s yeast extract).

Completely baffled by those who thought the plot was a mess – it was quite straightforward and linear by Moff’s standard.

The new theme music lacks fatness.

I suspect the “haven’t we seen that set before” vibe is more to do with budgets than story.

As ever the show provides a masterclass in walking the line that must appeal to everyone from 7 to 70+ (with the added complication of different cultures now).

And 2 of the first three posts in this thread from people who created accounts solely to post content-free negativity (one of them seems to have been disappeared). I wonder if they had bets with their classmate. Plus ça change.

Anyone who thinks GITFP is not one of the finest single eps, but “crap from Tennant’s time” is not worthy of a response.

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@ScoutTheAiredale

*Doffs cap*

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Ack, @ScoutTheAiredale , it’s never good to hear news of a good man going down.

A certain troll will spin the Twirl of Friendship tonight.

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@craig @phaseshift

I can’t think of anything much more excluding that lecturing other users on “storytelling 101” in the style of a over-condident 6th former (or whatever they are called these days, and if over-confident 6th former isn’t an oxymoron) and then whining about passive aggression.

By the same token,  tolerating massive wodges of text on a format that is simply not designed for it, letting it swamp every other discussion, is about as off putting and contrary to any concept inclusiveness as is possible.

*Shrugs*

@phaseshift – I’ll leave you to work out the honking great fallacy in your question. Message understood?

 

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@wolfweed

Crikey – I’ve had migraines that look like that.

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@denvaldron @jimthefish

Shouldn’t this be in the fanwank fan creativity section? Or is that place reserved for slash (I wouldn’t know – it is the one bit of board I never look)?

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@rob

*Head explodes*

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@scaryb

1 detemined grumpy Dalek is all you need to kill you.

I love the implication of the concept of a non-grumpy Dalek!

@All

On The Time War I don’t think I can put my view better than in this reply to @juniperfish  (damn she brings out the best in me). I was especially proud of “Deus ex Moment”, so I’m damned well gonna highlight it again!

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@thommck

I always interpreted it as a “non-violent” war, i.e. a timelord would alter time, then a Dalek would go back and alter time to counteract it, then a timelord would go back and change that time ad infinitum. Like they were all sitting above time (outside the pipes 😉 ) playing a game of chess with the universe.

See, here’s the thing. It involves the Daleks – it would be anything but non-violent. Even if the Time Lord High Council and the Dalek High Command had their chess sets out, they would be using them to move real people and take real squares.

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Blimey @Shazzbot

Interesting use of the word ‘rescuing’ with respect to the Doctor plucking Clara away from Christmas dinner.

All this time ands you still haven’t tuned into British humour? Slacker! This ain’t thanksgivings, it’s Christmas. It’s an ordeal. 🙂

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@bluesqueakpip @timeloop @arkleseizure

It is in the text that it was remarkable to give River one, so don’t take my word for it, take Moff’s. He “took it on the chin” when it was pointed out that the big “use the red settings” etc scene leading to

DOCTOR
So some time in the future, I just give you my screwdriver.
RIVER
Yeah.
DOCTOR
Why would I do that?
RIVER
I didn’t pluck it from your cold dead hands, if that’s what you’re worried about.

made the sonic out to be something special (not *a* screwdriver, *my* screwdriver), not given lightly – but that this was somewhat negated in Eleventh Hour when it turned Tardis out churned ’em out like sweets. So Moff made us look at kittens.

The fix on DotD restores the sonic to *his* screwdriver, not just *a* screwdriver.

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@timeloop @ahowe444

And then Moffat arsed it up by having the Tardis able to make multiple screwdrivers, was called out on Twitter about it and shouted – well, tweeted – OH LOOK! KITTENS!!!

This problem was fixed in DotD by cunning (but spoiler free, just in case) means that ended up foreshadowing the way that the mahoosive ending worked.

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@ahowe444 – please don’t shout.

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^^^Wot @soundworld said^^^ re timestreams.

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@scaryb

When Susan is locked by by The Doctor, she has lost a shoe. Given my occasional theory that Clara is Susan’s mum I’ve said (can’t remember if here or on the Grain) to watch out for a lost shoe. She the exchange between Osgood and…er..Osgood as the negotiations kick off.

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1. That is a point of some debate.

2. Er… a “Blueness”?

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@wolfweed – How many of the 12,939 peak tweets consisted of OMG!!!! ROSE!!!!!!! 🙂

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@Shazzbot – I believe you may have mentioned it 😉

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@fatmaninabox

a) Will it give my life new meaning? That depends how much meaning your life has
b) Does following people I don’t know and am unlikely to ever meet make me a stalker? No. I follow people I know and people who interest me.
c) Is the fact that I’m about to go and buy some milk really that interesting to anyone but myself? No, but I am sure there is much more you can tweet about.  That thing, for instance. You know, that…..thing.

The trick with Twitter is to use a client so you can have it open in a corner of the screen. If you are on a Mac I recommend Tweetbot.

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Hmmmph. It won’t animate as an avatar.

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@scaryb

Harrumph. RTD/ Verity interview already post by SOMEONE!

Honestly! Some people work is never appreciate 😉

(BTW, if anyone wants the Delia Derbyshire drama from Radio 4 I’ve got a rip of it)

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@juniperfish

For what other reason does the Billie Piper conscience of The Moment ensure Hurt to Eleven do not remember the Clara intervention?

That was nothing to do with The Moment. The time lines were out of sync, War and Ten couldn’t retain the new information when they returned to their proper place in the order (as explained by Ten who was wholly unaware of The Moment’s interface). All The Moment did was let Hurt Doctor see the ghost of Christmas Yet To Be.

She had a plan. It worked. But…

…Nines torment…

…Tens regretting…

…Eleven’s forgetting…

…were the collateral damage, the psychological torment of war, an entire herd of blind and invisible monsters. It doesn’t matter that he did the right thing, because Gallifrey was burning and it was doing so well before the Doctor stepped in and asked for the soldier’s gun. He had been fighting a long, long time (since at least the time of Claudius ;)). Nothing could heal that but Time Itself and the nightmares must have been horrific. You don’t need to commit genocide to carry the scars of war – you just need to go to war.

Eleven, who had had a little practice dodging bullets, essentially pulled the same trick he did at Lake Silencio. Neither War nor Ten had that experience.- but there is no River to reassure the grieving.

Why would The Moment – a conscience without an ego – let the children burn once, only to save them later? She needed one man in pain, convinced of his failure, to unwittingly learn how to do the right thing, to have the time to work it out. War goes into the barn. When he comes out Gallifrey is gone. The Deus ex Moment knew what she was doing.

Ebenezer Scrooge was lucky – he was a bad man who could turn good. What can the good men do?

Much like your mum and dad, closed loop causality fucks you up.

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@Shazzbot

Oh yes! There is only one Hannibal Lecter (pity about the rest of Manhunter, but he was epic).

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@Junpierfish

Moffat and his writers’ team have spent his tenure writing about time loops, the re-writing of time, different time streams etc. and now this interview wants to reduce the complexity of that narrative to ‘ “it never happened” because I wrote over Russell T’s story-line? Just….. NO!

Oh, nonononononono. I’m not letting you have that. “Reduce the complexity?” He is condemned to centuries of guilt for something he didn’t do,  and but for the intervention of Grandfather Baker – perhaps seeking to spare himself the pain – would never have known if his attempt to right a wrong had succeeded. Even though every viewer knows that he would always find an answer he doesn’t.

It doesn’t get much more complex than that. Moffatt is all about what is happening in the character’s head, especially the poor lonely boy.

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@Shazzbot

Thirded.

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@timeloop – closed-loop causality FTW!

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@scaryb

Also, when Osgood rescued Kate from the ….er…..network of lower intestines or whatever it was….she very clearly called her Kate and, when they were confronting the Zygons, Kate called her Osgood.

That ain’t filial!

NOW

Very early on in Matt’s run, around TBB or VotD he was asked about family by Amy and he said he’s lost it an then breezed on saying it was a “Bad time” – which prompted comment on the Graun, I recall. Now we know why

Also also, the Doctor is now a father and grandfather again!

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@curvedspace @badwolfie

The Empty Child:

Rose: “Look at you, beaming away like you’re Father Christmas!”
The Doctor: “Who says I’m not, red-bicycle-when-you-were-twelve?”

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@Shazzbot

I’m a bit disappointed that ‘the last, great war’ – The Time War – is a lot of splodey things, and fires, and people being flung about by explosions.

It was the last day of the War – and pretty close to the end game, with or without the Doctor. Any squadie will tell you that wars are won by taking land, with troops on the ground fighting door-to-door and finally by taking “the citadel”. Think ‘Soviet Army entering Berlin’. Much had preceded it (not least boffins breaking German codes), but the end game was bloody and final, last man standing (or last Dalek in Gallifrey’s case).

And we already know the Time Lord High Council is about to end the Universe. High Command, meanwhile, was was defending the fortress…

And it was hard to be more timey….WHAT? than the ultimate solution.

@scaryb

I dunno – Scottish ears must be faulty. That was ma’am. Not ifs, no buts. She’s a Surrey girl – went to Tiffin’s, for heaven’s sake. Trust me, I know my Estuarine (all these posh girls get it wrong – it’s supposed to be pronounced “mam”).

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