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@ScoutTheAiredale- hehe, my other half one ended up in hospital and lost part of his finger because he tried to give a Yorkie her medicine without the food bribe!

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@ScoutTheAiredale- and mum- so sorry to hear your news (and to be so long in responding to it). I’m sure you’ve been strong for you mum- I know the only thing that can make this kind of thing remotely bearable is a warm head and a wet nose.

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@juniperfish- I love Kiss Kiss Bang Bang. The film that is. Masters was great in the Torchwood episode, although, bafflingly, I like him best with bleached hair and a terrible ‘British’ accent. (Which sounded a little like Elvis Costello, so he always could claim it was meant to be transatlantic…)

Hush was a fantastic episode, which, coming to it latish, I didn’t see until Sci-Fi started showing Buffy- E4 never showed it, which left a weird gap in Willows storyline. (Same thing with the Buffy-Riley sex- fraternity house nearly destroyed.)

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@fiveroundsrapid- re Capaldi Who- given the re-set nature of the new generations, and I suppose the age of the new incumbent, it might be nice to have something of a return to the start- suppose the male Teacher who gives Clara the Doctors message in TDOTD follows her to the Tardis- he looks like he might like too- and encounters the Doctor, who, if he is as suggested having some memory problems, is as yet a little less humanised than we are used to.

They could completely pull that off, considering that he has a companion who doesn’t just know ‘her’ doctor. She’s been around all of them.

(Actually they might have already done that recently for one of those History of the Doctor things, which might spoil it…)

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@ScaryB- yes, literally crashing in then crashing out. To me there was a particular chaos about this Doctor which fits well with this.

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@ScaryB- good thoughts on the carer comparison, though, at the risk of being a bit twee, like the Doctors decision to stay on the planet and protect it, it can also bring positive moments, which can make it feel very worth it, and make it feel worse in the end. I’d never even thought of that parallel before you mentioned it (the daleks are atos, right? 😉 )

re: the regeneration- was it @bluesqueakpip (can’t find it here, might be on the Guardian) who commented that the super destructive strength of the regeneration energy was because it was from post timewar gallifray, and it had been beefed up as a weapon. This was not obvious to me till she pointed it out, but really works. That it can be used as a weapon we known from newly regenerated River, I had wondered if it was because it was a new cycle, it becomes less powerful over time- River was only on her third I think- but this is better for continuity. And before that I was a little concerned at the newness of this power. But no, the newness is what makes sense.

I liked the snap- headshake- from Smith to Capaldi. After all that came before, it was so quick, so devastatingly swift and irreversible- so suddenly, however expectedly gone, and you- or at least Clara- want it taken back, undone. It was like a heartbeat.

@scaryb again- imagine- a Doctor who has forgotten pretty much everything (other than that he regenerates) with a companion who has, in some form, been there through every step of his life. That might be a good way to find out how they got out of there, Clara would have to tell him what she knows and how come. It would also be a nice series re-set, because it would be a physiological- emotional re-set, and Clara would really be acting much as Susan did, attracting new companions and helping them humanise the doctor. (Hopefully with less screaming, though…)

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@ScaryB- you were very wise, and delayed gratification can be all the better. Me, I pretty much got up in the middle of the night to open my Christmas present, so to speak, and was punished.

This is why it is important for us to ‘lean how to use iplayer’  (wonder if that was a comment on how the overnights don’t represent true viewing figures for Doctor Who (yours wouldn’t have counted, for example, unless you waited till this evening)

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@blenkinsopthebrave very true. At least I’ve downloaded the doctor so I’ll have him long after she’s gone back home. (And someone gave me genesis of the daleks for Christmas!)

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@Bluesqueakpip- definitely.

@Rob- It wasn’t ideal viewing conditions, but I’ve worked out how to use iplayer- and I feel a lot better since I’ve baked a passive-aggressive loaf of bread at her…

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@GothamCelt- probably a coincidence. (Lem is also Mel spelt backwards.)

That said I have thought about the Tibetan Buddhism thing before- because it is similar. The ‘same’ person, with memories of previous versions, but not the same personality.

It always makes me see a regeneration as death. And Matt Smith’s sadness here- he knows the memories will continue- but ‘he’ will be gone.

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Soo- Christmas with the mother in law staying wasn’t going too badly.

Until I put Doctor Who on, and she pipes up, a few minutes in: ‘I didn’t know the Doctor was stupid’.

(My other half, not even a real fan, felt constrained to defend him/me.)

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I think- as a fan, for a Christmas episode, it was great. I also think it was at the very least brave to do a regeneration/tying up of lose ends episode at Christmas.

The only sort of disappointment I felt from it is the sort of disappointment I always feel when I am watching/reading something with a really interesting mystery and it gets solved. It all made a lot of sense in my opinion- which isn’t always a given with Moffart, bless him- regarding the order of the silence.

Matt Smith was brilliant, but that always is a given. So was Clara’s grandmother (for a moment I almost wondered about those Clara is the doctors granddaughter theories). The nudity thing- I’m not sure if it really added anything- but it managed to be quite sweetly innocent, for the most part.

I wasn’t so sure about the speaking of the name- for one thing, he could lie, but he could fail to speak. But at least we know now we will never hear the doctors name. (Which could only ever be an anti-climax) because the Doctor is his name.

I’ve been trying to work out if Tasha Lem could, conceivably, be a regeneration of River. The ‘fighting the psychopath’ comment, who would have put River’s grave there for the Doctor to find- there are a lot of reasons why not- why would she have a different name (well, the Church probably wouldn’t have promoted River that high up…) it was in fact Tasha who lead (inadvertently) to River’s kidnap (but the Doctor didn’t remember the role of the silence, and did River ever know it was an ‘order of the silence’?

I think the main reason I like the idea is because I am no believer in the asexual doctor, but there is a considerable amount of space between that and a doctor having it off constantly across the universe. Moffat has tended to tone that part of the Doctor down, or rather mock it as he did, a little bit, in TDOTD. Here it just seemed a little Tennant-y. Great character, though. And I had no problem with her overcoming the Dalek process- though, for Christmas viewers, I do wonder if it would have been possible that a verson of Clara survived full Dalekisation.

Capaldi was fantastic at the end. ‘Do you know how to drive this thing?’ (Oh yes- Tasha could drive the Tardis. Just saying.) Matt Smith, bald. Clara was really good, I think she’ll be a great transitioning companion, from one Doctor to another.

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@alloftimeandspace- welcome. That is exactly what this site is for.  And there is a nice mix of new and long term fans on here (I only really got interested with Smith/Moffart, but, as with you, the obsession spread) so it’s also a place to learn more about the history of the program.

@Phaseshift- fantastic- sounds like it was meant to be. I really do think it’s a good idea. In my last but one course I came across a comment about how, in the 19th century, novels were a kind of conversation, influenced by and influencing each other. I think the same can be true about television programs, and Doctor Who is especially chatty.

Plus its nice to have some sort of communal viewing experience to look forward too of a Saturday night 🙂

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Has anyone else read much/any Lester Bangs? I was reminded by the death of Lou Reed. ‘Psychotic reactions and carburettor drugs’, I just dug it out. Wonderful writer, I enjoy his list of unfinished/published work better than many books.

The part that always sticks in my head is where he objects to a racist word from a friend, and she justifies herself by outlining the kind of sexism she receives on the subway, and his main comment is that sometimes he thinks the only thing simple is pain. (I.E. he checked his privilege without a hint of sandal wearing.)  I quite like some of Hunter. S. Thompson’s writing, but I always feel a little resentful/alienated by this writer who is so much of his time, and age, and date, and country. I think Lester Bangs could be of either sex, any time or place, and been pretty much the same writer.  And I think I would have liked him.

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@phaseshift I still think that is a great idea, mostly because one thing I like about this site is that this is a community, watching and discussing a particular program, but also discussing many others, and because the original impulse for the site came from a series blog- I would love to discuss other TV shows with other people. I have really enjoyed watching BG who. And mostly because I really think more people should watch some Sapphire and Steel.

The Avengers sounds great. Is there no way of accessing it? (I personally think that episodes available for free on the internet are probably great for DVD sales.

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Finally managed to re-watch this. Other than it’s utter, utter brilliance, and the fact that although the 3D must have been amazing, it didn’t spoil the 2D viewing experience.

Three points occurred to me.

Firstly, though it was very underplayed, there is the fact that the Doctor/s was under and obligation to help the Zygons as refugees rather than simply treat them as an invading force. Their planet was destroyed by the time-war. The situation was not unlike that of VOV, creatures fleeing the crack in time- except that it was. It made me wonder if this was the kind of thing the McGann doctor was doing- helping people affected by the time war rather than fighting in it- before he regenerated into a warrior.

It appears that the regeneration into a warrior wasn’t as complete as might have been expected. Hurt was, all the way through, a Doctor. Other actions of his might have been referred too, but nothing that had aged him. I’m interested in why Smiths Doctor is, by implication (from River) older than Tennants. From this I wonder if it is the effect of letting/making himself forget how many children were killed. Looking at Smith Doctors more worrying traits (Using his name and reputation as a weapon, telling the enemy to run rather than running himself) it’s as though he had almost taken on some power internally, from what he had/thought he had done. (Clara’s surprise as his involvement in the moment still makes sense, because I think Amy and Rory (and River) had managed to wear some of this out of him- I can’t remember if he ever said ‘basically, run’ in front of Clara.

Everything that happened in this episode was set up. The same software (I have no problem with the different sonic screwdrivers. They have a kind of cloud they constantly upload to). The memory wipe- not just for the Zygon situation, but the role memory would play in the entire episode. And the 3D painting- stasis- As @bluesqueakpip says, that pretty much told us from the start- who would have painted it, and as well- this is how…

And it’s been said again and again, but the Hurt Doctor voicing the criticisms of modern who: The screwdrivers (‘what are you going to do, assemble a cabinet at them?’) the hand-waving. ‘Timey-whimey. The youth. the kissing. (to be fair, though, his immediate predecessor started that one…) but ultimately recognising the doctor-ness beneath all this.

 

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@Shazzbot- no problem with moving the conversation- though there is a tenuous kind of relevance, it is definitely a case of the first story making me think about possibilities for the next ones.

Yes, AG, I almost mentioned Martha as the only strictly ‘ordinary’ companion. But thinking of the others- Rose (unless we now decide there was some sort of recognition going on) Donna and Rory all seemed ordinary at the start of their adventures, and then came into their own. Amy- as  I think someone here put it: Eleven imprinted on Amy like a little baby duck- they had that brief history in her childhood and his ‘birth’, and when he found her again, there was mystery around her. River would never dream of seeming ordinary, and came with the mystery of how she knew him- and how well she knew ‘him’. Clara was special twice, before he even met the original.

What I’m getting at is, would the next doctor have much patience with normal humans or aliens/people? At the beginning, we had two aliens- one of which seemed considerably more fond of and comfortable with human beings than the other, accidentally acquiring/kidnapping two humans. I don’t think Clara needs to be descended from Susan for her role in the program to echo hers.

One difference between Moffart and RTD, is that the Moff hasn’t had the short termers, the not quite companions. Rory turned out to be essential. River, the Doctor’s wife. Rita died in episode (alas). This might have cut down on the input of ‘normality’ in the series. And in a way, Stax is possibly one of the most relatable new Who companion figures. (Or have I lived too long in the north?)

Re: human/doctor- I prefer Smith to Tennant, I like a more alien doctor. I think this is a really good aspect of the series. Because a lot of people feel ‘alien’ at times. Sometimes people might relate to the Doctor’s difficulty in relating to people. I think sometimes we need a companion to cover the ‘human’ side of things, and let the doctor be the doctor. But the human side of things has to matter, or why bother?

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@Shazzbot- it was wonderful watching the 50th anniversary episode having watched this. I really think Moffat acknowledged some of the more surprising (in more recent eyes) aspects of this story- as you say, the Doctor is not quite ‘our’ doctor yet, and it seems that he really does need the human input- and then on Saturday, it takes Clara, not as the impossible girl but as a human being, pushing the doctor in the right direction.

This episode does raise the question, in a way: is the doctor better more, or less ‘human’? Do the companions work best humanising the doctor, or demonstrating, by contrast, how alien he is?

Using the opening Moffat did reminded me of something I was thinking after watching AUC- how, if they decide the next doctor should have another companion (and I do, overall, prefer three to two in the Tardis) they really could go back to the beginning in a way. Even if Clara is not connected to Susan, she is the impossible girl. Photographs of her exist across time, basically from the early days of photographs. I could easily see someone spotting her, becoming intrigued, and ultimately following her to the Tardis. Where the Doctor, unused to traveling with ‘ordinary’ people, might be very reluctant to take them along.

After Saturday, I’m thinking about that bloke who bought Clara the message at the beginning…

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@DenValdron- I agree that the aggression and all over badness of the Daleks is essentially a design feature.

But there was the comment in AOTD that the Daleks have become stronger in fear of the Doctor- the ‘predator’ of the daleks- coming from Daleks, that title sounds a little like a compliment.

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@XAD4- try the banana-toffee dodgers. They are wrong but in a 50th anniversary way, right as well…

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Really happy. Was a little surprised though- watching it through, I kept thinking that Moff had, unusually for him, gone smaller than I had expected. But then again, it was bigger on the inside.

It was far less about Matt Smith than the publicity might have suggested- though he was, because of Clara, the one who changed everything. And Hurt was wonderful- expressing some of the grumbles of some long term fans about the re-boot.

Three doctors, not one thought to check if the door way locked- brilliant.

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Am drinking equal parts Pernod, vodka, black current cordial topped with lemonade. Tastes like liquid aniseed balls. Love you all, had better stop posting now, damn you iPhone for not including a breathalyser.

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@pedant- I’m the destroyer… I think that was just my computer talking to me.

my real name: I’m the mage. That’s my computer laughing at me.

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@scaryb, @bluesqueakpip, @Shazzbot, @timeloop, @jimthefish, @juniperfish, @whohar, @phaseshift, @wolfweed, @janetteb @tardisblue, @steve-thorp, @osakahatter @fatmaninabox, @magnetite, @blenkinsopthebrave, @whisht, @pedant

And not least @danmartinuk, @craig and @mini-htpbdets (and apologies if I missed or misspelt anyone, you have no idea how difficult it was for me to type this list) I hope you all have a wonderful time this weekend, whether at the London meet up (there will be dogs, of course you will have a wonderful time. And a bar.) or elsewhere.

I feel, thanks to this site, the blog that inspired it’s creation, and especially the contributions of @htpbdet that I am approaching this anniversary episode with a much better understanding of what it represents than I ever could have otherwise. And I have been able to obsess over the coming episode, and turn down party invitations for Saturday night, without feeling like a complete loser 😉

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I really enjoyed watching this last night. Made me think of @htpbdet as well, but not just in a sad way.

It was fantastic watching how it all began, and interesting, knowing the ways in which the show has evolved, seeing what was there from the start. I liked the fact the backstory was very minimalist- the Doctor and his granddaughter (and yes, it seems quite obvious to me that she was, literally and not in some figurative way, his granddaughter) come from a different time and place, from a people more advanced, in certain ways, from humans. A reference to them being exiled, no other explanation that I saw.

The Doctor was very different in many ways. It was Ian who was heroic, helping the injured caveman when the Doctor just wanted to get back to the TARDIS. This added some context, I think, to the relationships between the Doctor and his companions, and especially Rory, where I think it was made explicit- sometimes the Doctor needs a prod from his human companions. Maybe he likes humans so much because they make him better- and this is what saved him from the more arrogant excesses of the other time lords?

The Doctor mumbles crossly ‘I’m not a doctor of medicine’. I’ve always felt the title refers more to a PhD kind of Doctor. I liked the fact that Ace called him ‘professor’ for the same reason. Plus its the older use of the title.

Taking them from the 20th century to- the stone age/ice age?- was a clever idea. Although Susan liked the 20th century a lot more than her Grandfather, you got the feeling that both ages were quite primitive to them.

Oh and I like the way the first reaction to the inside of the TARDIS wasn’t to exclaim ‘it’s bigger on the inside’, instead, they noted the ‘difference in dimensions’.

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@thommck- getting two bonkers theories about my avatar really confirms my love of this site.

And yes, Yorkies are scarier. Many times when we have rescued one, we have progressed from ‘why would anyone abandon this dear, sweat little dog’ to ‘ouch! plasters! ah, that might be why’.  The dog in the picture has never had teeth in the time we’ve had her, and would fit in the palm of your hand. But you’d still flinch when she got cross at you and went for it, and the sight of her squaring up to a bull mastiff was one to treasure.

In her defence, her breed is called a powder-puff. That would make anyone bad tempered…

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@ardaraith, misspelt your name- love your bowtie,(and hat!)  hate copying your name.

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@Shazzbot- interesting points.

Part of me always saw a lot of post Big Bang Who as Moffat world-building, showing a subtly different world since Amy re-booted it. And it seemed right to me, in this new reality, created out of her memories, to have a Big Bad whose greatest power was that of making people forget (a bit like the devil convincing the world he doesn’t exist, as the Usual Suspects has it).

But as you say, the silence were foreshadowed in the EH, although that could conceivably be timey-whimey/the power of suggestion. And they are credited with influencing human technological developments.. .and, as @adaraith quoted, her ‘honour’ for bringing the silence is in the future tense.

re: Mme K, they did make a point of the fact that Amy only killed her in a time (or timelessness) that no longer existed. That might just have been to reassure her, but she still did it, morally speaking. And since we still haven’t seen anything but the results (at demons run) of the ‘endless bloody war’ (let alone what is meant about the Gamma forest’s being ‘(was it?) heaven neutral’. I think a lot hinges on how long a game Moffat has been playing, and to what extent he is thinking on his feet.

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@Shazzbot- a theory even more insane than what was actually happening! You win, at least, this corner of the internet! 😉

 

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@scaryb It was a weird yorkie! here is a better picture http://www.toms-travels.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/22-08-10-024.jpg

I think the picture used for here was very like the one for my Guardian avatar, but it went a bit funny. I’ve learned to love it, and it is, at least, unique!

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@Shazzbot- would defiantly like to be there in avatar.

Mine is actually taken from a picture and went a bit weird (they look a little creepy, don’t they?) when I tried to upload it. So if @scaryb just uses that, that would be fine. It’s a lovely idea, and takes a little bit of the sting of not being able to attend in person away. 🙂

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@JimTheFish- I did. They were however banana-toffee dodgers, which part of me finds deeply wrong- yet tasty.

@PhaseShift- again, I did. A couple is like a score, isn’t it? 😉

@Craig- thank you, I am. And since @bluesqueakpip ‘s feedback was so useful, some of the credit also goes to you for creating this site.

@Timeloop- thank you. I have a bit of a smug face at the moment 🙂 it will pass…

 

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Sounds like a good boy! 🙂

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@Shazzbot- thank you. Really wish I was going- there’s always next year, right? (I did hear a suggestion of a meet up live blog with pictures of the dogs taking food. I like pictures of dogs, especially when they’re taking food 😉 )

@bluesqueakpip 😉 defiantly make it all the sweeter!

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First assignment for my creative writing course- 89%.

Am opening a tab for @Bluesqueakpip- thank you so much for your help.

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@Bluesqueakpip- Thank you. The certificates really matter most. Guilt-free book buying, however, is not to be sneezed at. 😉

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@wolfweed- I shall never admit to LOLing.

But that made me grin and giggle at the same time. A lovely feeling. So have a GAG.

No, that’s terrible. Forget I said that.

But thank you!

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@Shazzbot- one of the general arts introductory modules- it was a bad line, and a long time before I understood anything of what she was saying.

I got: a £75 book token, a certificate, a heavy dose of smugness and to have a bottle of wine this evening to celebrate. I maintain that is what she told me, I took it that all four were mandatory… 🙂

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I just got a phone-call from the OU- I won a prize for the first module I did!

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@WhoHar- ah, it wasn’t very coherent. I just had an attack of paranoia for some strange reason. Wasn’t even drinking- maybe that was the problem. Still, better to be paranoid then to appear extremely rude, I suppose…

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to clarify- the theory I hope isn’t right and that I didn’t say was a good theory is that the terrible thing the Hurt Doctor did was giving up etc, not @HTPDBDET’s of him being a different ‘doctor’.

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@mini-HTPBDETS- I like that theory.

We do know that the idea of ‘self’ for a timelord is somewhat different to that of non-regenerating/reincarnating human beings. When the physical body and personality change, what is the continuation exactly, assuming it is more than memory?

And I think ‘eleven’ said something along the lines of it not being about the name, it’s the title of ‘the Doctor’ that matters. It’s the role he plays.

I also wonder about the idea of ‘peace and sanity’. I saw part of the documentary on Watch about Colin Bakers Doctor, and the one thing I did quite like was where, at the start of his regeneration (umm, spoilers?) he starts clutching his head and talking about not enough change, all those centuries of existence. Maybe it was peace and sanity for himself, and that is what was not acceptable for the doctor- maybe Hurt Doctor just gave up? and ‘our’ doctor replaced him? (I rather hope not, though. I didn’t say it was a good theory…)

I’m still not sure, if he was originally a different person in the same position, why he would be in our Doctors timestream. But I think Moffat has worked his way out of worse corners….

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@Phaseshift- absolutely, and that is what made this forum, from the start, absolutely not the gaggle of Moffat/Smith fans stamping their feet and shutting down any debate that it has, on occasion, been represented as on the Dan Martin blog by (one presumes) non members on a troll.

@htpbdet‘s posts were always interesting, articulate and thought out. And his blogs were wonderful, brave and heartfelt.

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I’m so sorry to hear that, but glad that @htpbdet could see his son’s wedding.

My thoughts are with the family.

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@Craig- that is very Doctor Who. (though some areas of fandom would feel the need to insist, that it is a satellite of platonic love, and nothing whatsoever to do with River…) It is hard to choose a song from an artist who was so versatile in style, yet so consistently himself in whatever he did.

@FatManInABox- heh, he’d probably disapprove of that, electronic recordings… But then, I came to him through cassette tapes, in a cheap Walkman with built in speakers. He probably wouldn’t have cared for that either… (much as I love vinyl, my record player, into which you can plug MP3 players distorts them and CD’s charmingly.)

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I had forgotten this was where all this got started. @craig provided one of my best Christmas presents ever!

I agree with @PhaseShift- this episode followed the conventions of a Christmas episode: Lonely doctor, a story that makes sense on its own. The Paternoster Gang may not have been brand new, but no prior knowledge was really required. Clara’s mystery didn’t really arise in the story until the end, and you would have to be living in a bunker not to know that she was the new companion. The Great Intelligence, I’ll admit (this being BF (Before Forum)) didn’t ring any bells for me, but nor did it need to, for the story of the episode. This was an origin story, it was nice coming to it fresh.

Jenna was fantastic in this, practically playing two roles here, both somewhat distinct from Oswin. And although the ‘tears at Christmas’ was a little cringe worthy, it was Christmas. I didn’t even mind ‘the mothership’ that much. This is the best of the Christmas Specials I have seen. (Just as- and I make no complaints about the others (Moffat’s at least)- TNOTD was, to me, the most logically coherent series end.)

 

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@FatManInABox- just came on here to post about the same thing.

He really was one of the most gifted and interesting people in the music industry. (Hence Leister Bangs’ obsession with him.) There are very few people who can switch between being very dry and cynical and violent in their imagery, to being so sweet and tender. I think what first drew me to him was on the first VU album, where he had Nico sing ‘Femme fatal’ and ‘I’ll be your mirror’, and thinking how the same person could have written both songs about the same person.

 

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@Chickenelly- ‘of some sort’. Accidentally got on the channel just before it was broadcast, my boyfriend turned to me and said ‘oh, what’s that?’, I said, ‘it’s a trailer without footage from the actual episode, and well played’. It’s lovely. I think he lost interest after that, though he did turn around and grin at me when the lost episodes were announced, which, since he’s not a fan, was adorable.

@Bluesqueakpip- thank you for the transcript. ‘face the choices I have made in the name of the Doctor’. Interesting. He says that he has fought for peace.  Is that what sets Hurt ‘Doctor’ aside? Just saw the clip on Watch of Four not destroying the Daleks, which reminded me of Elevens agony of guilt over that, over not committing genocide/’killing Hitler’ on a planetary scale, and of his agreement with HurtDoctor that what he did was without choice, and in the name of peace and sanity.

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@ScaryB- but I would suggest, even older. Think of what we know: That the library is, if not a fixed point in time, a fixed point for River and the Doctor, so he possibly needed to think, the second time he met her, that she had died for him.

We know that fixed points can’t be re-written- but they can be subverted. So long as the relevant people think someone has died, they don’t have to die.  we also, I think, know that the flesh can share the feelings of the people they are copied from, probably enough to create an electronic ghost. And the Doctor has already met a flesh-River. And when the Doctor wanted to know more about the flesh- was it just because of Amy’s copy? or was there something else in his mind?

(Sorry, this is really off thread. Is there a River thread?)

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Re: River- this is probably quite a tiresome suggestion, but do we know, for an absolute fact, that River really died? We know that she said and ten believed that the way she is supposed to have died wouldn’t allow for regenerations, even if she still had them, but to be fair we’ve seen the Doctor die, his body burned, and it turned out not to be true. And we do know now that there has been a flesh version of River, as a baby.

I think, sad though it is, it would probably be better dramatically etc, if that was the farewell to River. But, well, Moffat lies…

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