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@phaseshift     I really liked your thoughts about the need to have the dead choose for themselves to delete their emotions. This works really well and fits both this story and what we know about cyber conversion.

Also    No – I think this was a powerful end to a series. It’s downbeat and one I think you could only pull off if you know you have a Christmas special relatively close. As Santa said “You can’t leave it like that”.   I agree completely with this!

I really enjoyed your “Master ranking” as well (and am adding my vote to those who favour it as a blog of its own). I agree that Missy is the best take on the character since Delgado’s. We would need more confrontations to see whether this pairing could ever hope to match the classic Delgado/Pertwee one. Maybe we should have a Master-oriented viewing series at some point?

(And also, despite what I just wrote about viewers these days expecting explanations, I admit I had forgotten about Simm’s “resurrection”. So maybe we just don’t care after all?)

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My two cents gets you these thoughts about Osgood and her potential return.

First of all, River was quite a different situation. She died at the beginning, but as @purofilion says, we knew her situation at the time. That death was sad as viewed from Ten’s perspective, but less so from ours. The real parallel is her goodbye to Eleven in Name of the Doctor. This was so very sad because it was their mutual farewell, and I am in the camp of those who feel that this would be weakened by her returning and meeting a later Doctor.

My hope for Osgood’s survival is based on the notion that she was never really dead; i.e., she was teleported rather than killed, as with the characters in Time Heist. If this is what Moffat had intended all along, then I’m fine with it as I like the character and would love to see her as a companion for awhile. But I would be less pleased if the cost of her return was some kind of magical resurrection after the fact, because of fans (like me!) complaining about her death.

What I wouldn’t want to see is what I disliked about Rose’s arc: character is dead or gone, ostensibly without hope of return, after emotional and moving farewells, and then magically, just… comes back. (And even then, she wasn’t allowed to stay.)

I should add that I feel similarly about Missy. I’m pretty certain that she was meant to live, she has lived, and we will (gleefully!) see her again. I am hopeful that we will ultimately get some explanation for her survival and escape from Gallifrey. Despite the Master’s history back in the day, I’m not sure that “I escaped” will fly these days!

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@pedant       I love that scene. I think after Christmas I’m going to time travel and watch a whole whack of Pertwee episodes. The look on the Master’s face…

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@besd1    I loved your comments. You made a lot of good points. I particularly liked what you had to say about Danny, although personally I thought he acted the pants off it. But I think that what I really missed was a sense of closure between him and the Doctor. The Doctor seemed to have come to some kind of understanding and appreciation of “PE” by the end, but I’m not sure that it was reciprocated.

Regarding your first point, if the Master hadn’t always had at least one gaping hole in his plans, the Doctor would never have beaten him– yet another reason we can be sure that Missy really is the Master.  🙂

Like @blenkinsopthebrave and @pedant, I am also unsure about the viability of a return of Cyber-Brig. Once was a touching tribute, but a repeat might just be cheap.

@blenkinsopthebrave:    “United Colours of Benetton Daleks”      😀

@spider    And is exactly I think what the Doctor is saying when he is comparing himself to the Master and talking about feeling or not feeling the pain.      I loved this speech! Capaldi knocked it out of the park.

I have now officially run out of metaphors for success.  🙂  I’ll just leave it that Twelve has now topped my list of AG Doctors.

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I finally had a chance to watch this again (and actually, unlike some of the others, I really needed some breathing space between viewings). Nothing really new to add, other than random thoughts.

I don’t think it was as dark as my initial perception of it. Yes, the treatment of the subject of death and afterlife was challenging, Osgood’s death was painful (as was Kate’s, although because she survived, I had forgotten the effect her initial tumble from the plane had on me), and Danny’s and Clara’s ending was tragic. But in the end, love won over hatred, good over evil, and the Doctor found himself at last. Pretty uplifting on the whole!

Regarding the people around the internet who have criticized the series for being the Clara Oswald show, I can only guess that they haven’t enjoyed this Doctor as much as I have. Because I have to say that nobody, nobody, ever upstaged Capaldi for even a moment in my opinion. With every expression, every word, every movement or stillness, he has blown it out of the water. Really.

Clara and Danny were fabulous at the end… imperfect, tragic, believable, pitiable. I cried the second time too.

I can’t believe there were people who thought the Doctor’s parting from Clara was boring. I thought it was beautifully played. Two people who care for one another, but to whom hiding their deepest self has become second nature, are saying goodbye forever. I thought they got it exactly right. (Plus, a line whose chain-pulling hilarity eluded me the first time while I was swamped in the emotion, when the Doctor talks about going back to Gallifrey and making things better: “Queen, that would be good too.”   🙂 )

All in all, a really beautiful payoff of all the strands that have been woven throughout the series.

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Yes! My son (whom we sometimes call Astrophysics Boy) had the live stream on at breakfast this morning. You could see them all watching their computers, getting more and more serious just before the landing info was due to reach them. Then suddenly, cheers and hugs all around. It was actually pretty moving. All those years of work and a pretty spectacular payoff!

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@badwulf    Wow. Well done! I think it’s very cool that you know the different models of phone boxes.

@apopheniac    Yes. Well, I suppose I am old school enough that it didn’t occur to me to worry about the companion needing to sustain a story arc. And in fact, even in AG Who, it hasn’t always been that way. Actually, I think it’s quite possible that in designing the next companion and story arc, Moffat may well go with a new direction, as he did with his choice of Doctor.

Lots of great thoughts here about how the returned-from-the-dead might get their bodies back! It will be interesting to see whether this is addressed at all.

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@scaryb     Thank you! Such a powerful song. I have a June Tabor version, and I have literally never been able to sing it to completion. I choke up every time. And guess what? I’ve just done it again.

“Do not stand…” I knew the poem but not the song. Lovely, and what a beautiful voice the singer has.

Here’s another by Bogle (maybe you had this one in mind, @purofilion?). This version is by John McDermott.

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@pedant   @drben

I agree that this series has been, at its heart, about something beyond the bonkers, the monsters, the “all-of-time-and-space”, and even the science/pseudo-science that we are used to from DW. And maybe that was the motivation for the continued riffing on legends and myths, and what seemed at times like a deliberate toss-into-the-dustbin of actual science. The series may have been removing those trappings to clarify that this story was about a different kind of reality. In a sense, it was a spiritual journey. (I use that phrase with caution, because it is open to misinterpretation, but I think it’s what I mean!)

I have admitted that I was and am unhappy with the decision to “off” Osgood. That hasn’t prevented me from feeling that this was some of the best work of the entire AG run! I didn’t agree with Donna’s fate at the end of Series 4 either, but that series was probably my favourite (up until now, maybe!).

I guess I’m just saying, please don’t lump me in with the ARSE’s because I finally hit up against something in this series that I didn’t like!   🙂  I liked most of it so very, very much.

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Sorry, but I had to!

And here is my more sober contribution (applies to both parts of the finale really):

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@drben      Not least of which because I thought the voice sounded like Russell T. Davies, and had a moment’s (bonkers) thought that they were going full meta, and RTD would burst through the doors of the TARDIS, bitching about what a sad mess Moffat has made of his show.

That would have been brilliant! Not because I don’t like Moffat’s work, but because it would have been so funny. Actually, I wouldn’t be surprised if Santa doesn’t really figure in the Christmas episode. He could well have been more of a pseudo-Moffat, telling the audience that the story isn’t really over… Tune in next time! (Although I loved the Doctor’s expression when he saw who was at his door!)

I have noticed a few people in other places making that type of remark about the Brig’s appearance, but just as many others seemed to feel as you did. I cried, myself.

@gothamcelt   I think the thing about “boy coming back from the dead” that worked for me was that it allowed Danny to send him back, sacrificing himself. If Danny had just brought him back, happily ever after, etc., it would not have been as effective.

@spider   When I write my science fiction novel, I’ll just leave sensors right out of it. Safer, really.   🙂

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@geoffers   I didn’t get the feeling that the Doctor had decided to kill Missy until the moment he said “if it prevents you from doing it, yes”, or words to that effect. And even then, I wasn’t sure he was going to be able to go through with it!

And yes, I too loved the Bondian view of the Doctor falling through the air and saving himself at the same time!

@purofilion   I only wondered, since we clearly saw that the Cybermen had gone to Brisbane, whether you had seen any evidence of them around your place- cyberpollen, laser fire, cyborg zombies rising from the grave, etc.?

Welcome @elisian! I agree about Danny’s death in a way. It was purposeful and meaningful, and it brought his story to a conclusion (albeit a sad one!). I am a bit concerned with where it leaves Clara, as I want her story to come to a similar one, and she is currently left in a very bad place. As I assume that she won’t be left that way, one obvious way to fix it involves the return of Danny. I don’t think it would be the only way, though, so I guess we will have to wait a few weeks and see! As for Osgood, I suppose it’s possible that Moffat really didn’t view her any differently than Astrid et al, except for two points. One, she was not a new character but one we had met before in the anniversary special, and who was quite popular with viewers at the time. Two, the manner of her death was very different from those other potential companions, less dramatically satisfying.

@mudlark   Yes, good point. The Master/Missy must have gone into the cuppa soup with the rest of them. (By the way, has anyone who has been reading the “discussion” on the Guardian noticed that some people simply refuse to call Missy “Missy”, and are just calling her “the Master”, and even “him”? It made me laugh!)

On the whereabouts of Gallifrey: I find it really hard to imagine the Doctor “forgetting” that Gallifrey was trapped in another dimension. He put it there himself! And it was still there at the time of his regeneration. I had rather assumed that in going to those coordinates, he had expected to find some evidence of Gallifrey that would help him to release it back into our universe.

@bluesqueakpip    That suggests someone who already knows that about Time Lords – but it isn’t in UNIT’s previous experience.    Actually, UNIT is well aware of regeneration, even if they have never seen a time lord gender change before! However, I’m not discounting the Zygon Osgood theory on that basis.

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@anthonyappleyard    Well, it had occurred to me that shooting at Cybermen might need a different type of firepower than shooting at a person, so you could be right there!

@Lscot6    I heard Brisbane… Did you notice anything around your place, @purofilion?  🙂

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@janetteb    I suspect that if Osgood is coming back, it is already in the works and was intended that way from the start. Because surely the response to that death is about what he would have expected- some people gutted, some on board because of the threat it creates, some both. I would guess that if she’s dead, she’s dead; and if she isn’t, then Moffat already knows that. But who really understands The Brain of Moffat?… Oh, wait.  🙂

Good point about Santa and the target audience. But I’m pretty sure that the Santa knocking at the TARDIS door is not the REAL Santa!  🙂

Or… bonkers theory for December: Santa takes the Doctor on a madcap trip to regain his childlike sense of wonder and belief in the magic of Christmas. Possibly to the North Pole. Lots of planets have a north pole!

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@sandshoes  I have had a fast forward through the episode to look at the colours of the different weapon blasts. Missy’s is definitely a reddish yellow blast, with a pile of ash left behind (and glasses, oddly). But when Cyber Danny blows up the Cybermen to save Clara, there is a very brief blue flash, followed by a blast of yellow and lots of flames. When Cyber Brig shoots Missy, it looks completely different, a straight blast of blue light followed by a lot of blue sparks. So, not sure what the significance of that is, but I’m sure it’s no accident. (And we are probably supposed to have noticed it!)

@janetteb   I’m definitely interested in your thinking regarding the toy soldier! I think I will be watching the whole series again between now and Christmas, looking for clues, among other things. Lots to rethink!

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@bluesqueakpip     Good point about the Master and his disguises, I’d forgotten that. Also, nice call on St. Nicholas and the pickled boys.   🙂

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I just wanted to articulate a little more about my problem with the death of Osgood, and the death of Danny, and the issue of the killing off of characters generally.

Danny died for a purpose. He could have saved himself, the Doctor gave him the power to do that. He could have come back to Clara and lived his life with her. But he had already come to understand that he could never be at peace after killing the boy. In our first view of him, he was overcome by the memory of what he had done, and when we learned last week what that something was, it made tragic sense. So that made the choice simple. Instead of saving himself, he saved the boy. He righted the wrong that he had done. This makes sense of his trajectory within the story. Clara (and we, too) can give him up knowing why she is doing so; and he even leaves her with a new responsibility in his name: that of the boy. It makes narrative sense.

Osgood’s death is entirely different. She dies because she happens to be there where Missy has been left, and because the Doctor left her there after suggesting that she might travel with him. She dies to show us that Missy is crazy and dangerous. But we knew this already, and we are shown it even more effectively later on. Nor does her death have any lasting impact on the story or the Doctor. He likely regrets her death, but it doesn’t seem to change him in any real way, or alter the outcome of the story. It doesn’t fit with her character in any particular way. She is simply a random victim, but unlike the “Man Scout”, she is a person whom we have come to love.

This kind of death, for the reason of making the threat seem more real, just bugs me. J.K. Rowling had a lot to say about this, as I recall, and it annoyed me then, too. Osgood’s death actually took me out of the story for about ten minutes, because I was so angry at the pointlessness of it that the story kind of moved on without me! And if Osgood really is dead, if we are stuck with this bit of narrative, then for me it is the first really serious misstep of the series, especially as we really haven’t been given any reason to expect this kind of writing from Moffat before now (that I can remember, anyway).

Again, my philosophy, my problem, I know. And I suppose that it says something about me that my big complaint this series has been something being too realistic, rather than not realistic enough (the moon is an egg, etc.– no problem).   🙂

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@macphisto96   I’ve seen several people here and elsewhere speak of the missing joy.  I understand that, but that is purposeful.   This is interesting, because I myself have actually felt huge joy in this series. I have laughed out loud, I have smiled, I have sat wide-eyed, and after so many episodes have gone “YES.” Yes, the show has been thoughtful at times, even sombre, but never, to me, joyless.

Good point also in regard to Missy’s choice of Clara. She says it when she says “the control freak and the man who should never be controlled”. She obviously encountered Clara somewhere and saw the person she needed, with the character to travel with the Doctor, who could be loyal to him, but whose need for control might put them at odds. After manipulating Danny’s death, she knows that Clara will demand the Doctor’s help in “fixing it”, and that the Doctor will agree. Pretty complicated way of getting him there, but then, we know the Master, don’t we?  🙂

And as to Clara not recognizing her (as has been mentioned), why would she? I don’t see why we would expect Clara to recognize a face she had seen very briefly, a long time and many adventures ago, and not really thought much about since. I don’t suppose I would, either.

@pedant (and others)   I am aware of the view that drama requires the sacrifice of a loved character in order to bring home the threat. I disagree with it. I don’t mind sacrifice for a reason (as in Danny’s case). But killing off a character in a way that doesn’t move the plot, only to establish that, yes, the villain really is dangerous, just annoys me. Of course, this happens in real life all the time, but this is fiction. That’s why I’m really, really hoping that it hasn’t actually been done this time. But I get that that’s a personal view of mine, and others may not share it!

@robertdaller    Santa Clause didn’t sound too happy about them leaving with a lie     He found out who was naughty, I guess!   🙂

@the9thdoctor   When he finnaly realises that he is an idiot with his blue box, I think he meant that he is “only” The Doctor.   In other words, no more hero or lonely god, just the Doctor as we knew him first. I have been getting this sense throughout the series, one of the things that has made me so happy with it!

@apopheniac   I think Oswald would be a great companion. Yes, she is very bright and “sciencey”, but also timid and insecure, probably idealistic as well. She would have lots to learn from experiences with the Doctor.

@miapatrick   Agreed. It did seem a bit odd that the Doctor said he didn’t see a resemblance, but it would be equally odd for Clara to be so sure there was one when there wasn’t! I’m rather liking the idea of Orson being descended from the boy Danny died for, but I don’t expect it is true.  🙂

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@phileasf   Does Kate really need an explanation for how you could fit 91 Cybermen inside St Paul’s?   I think that the question was “How do you hide 91 Cybermen inside St. Paul’s?”   I noticed that too about the news report. But clearly, whatever has been rebooted, UNIT at least is still aware of the Cybermen. So maybe the media asked a UNIT spokesperson?

another reliable Cyberised dead person     Hee hee. I love a show about which this is something we might say.

@mudlark   I wonder if Missy somehow avoided ending up in the Time-Locked Gallifrey? Possibly dying and regenerating in the process? Because if she didn’t know where Gallifrey had gone, and believed herself and the Doctor to be the only Time Lords in existence (in our universe, anyway), it might matter to her a great deal to somehow get the Doctor on her “side”.

It’s a good point about the Matrix data slice/Nethersphere controlling the existence of the mausoleum. Because I did wonder at the time how UNIT was able to retrieve the TARDIS.

@pedant    Love didn’t conquer all, Danny’s sense of duty did    Good point! I hadn’t thought of it quite that way, but yes.

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@belshazzar       Wonderful first post, welcome! I agree with lots of what you say, and the more time I have for things to percolate (I only saw the episode a few hours ago), the more I suspect that some aspects at least of the ending will be revisited in a few weeks’ time. If done well, it could result in a very uplifting Christmas episode!

@stormintheheartofthesun    Thanks, I’d forgotten about the potential pregnancy thread. That could of course be the explanation for Orson.

@taffy   the Doctor brags to Missy about how her is ruler of the world.  Something Missy /Master had never been able to do.   Yes! I loved this too.

@janetteb    Maybe it will be the toy soldier that will lead the Doctor back to Gallifrey or enable Danny to be downloaded from the Matrix and thus saved.   I like both of these ideas!

I wonder if the ones who sacrificed themselves for the Doctor went to a different place than the others? They did not end up in the office with Seb. Maybe they are hidden in a different part of Missy’s TARDIS, and we will see them at Christmas?

And on a random note, I’m not sure I’ve ever cried so much in a DW!

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@pedant     Thanks for clarifying that. I will have to watch again to see how that affects my teleport theory. To which I am pretty attached, because I really, really want to think of a way that Osgood could have survived!

@bluesqueakpip    Interestingly, at the end, it seemed that the Doctor was more willing to accept Danny than Danny was to accept the Doctor. I think that their whole conflict came about not just because of the Doctor’s dislike of soldiers, but also Danny’s dislike of officers. I wonder how much that affected Danny’s behaviour toward Clara, which I didn’t really see as manipulative, but certainly can be viewed that way.

@cmbwhovian   While I suspect you’re right about Clara returning at Christmas, I did find their goodbye terrifically sad, because it was so very bleak. As for why they lied, it was clearly to set each other’s mind at rest. The Doctor tells Clara that he found Gallifrey, so she won’t worry about him, and she lets him think that Danny survived for the same reason!

@macphisto96    Very nice comment. I especially like your point about Missy’s motivation for killing Osgood.

@herisson     It was the bracelet that allowed someone to come back. Also, Danny sent the child to Clara, knowing that she would care for him if the parents couldn’t. But good question regarding the Nethersphere. I think it is in Missy’s TARDIS, but where is that now?

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Oh, and I loved Clara’s line “I wasn’t very good at it, but I did love you.”

@scaryb      I had the impression that Clara was about to tell that Doctor that she couldn’t travel anymore because she had adopted the boy. And that’s what she meant by “Danny and I will be just fine,” or whatever the exact words were.

And yes, there is still the matter of Orson, isn’t there? I would be inclined to posit this theory: Orson is not a descendant of Danny, but of the boy he “killed”. Clara adopted the boy and gave him the legal name “Pink”. Hence the “one of my grandparents was a time traveller” thing. Except for the fact that Orson was played by the same actor, and the script acknowledged this by having Clara say, “they looked quite a bit alike”. So not a completely viable theory.

Maybe we are not done with Danny after all?

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@apopheniac     I thought it was Seb at the door!  In any case, I’m not sure that scene can really count as a spoiler. Unless we’re believing in Santa now!

@pedant      It is a fundamental of good storytelling that victory has a cost.    I could accept Danny as the cost, but not Osgood!  🙁  I will have to watch again, but I didn’t think the Brig shot Missy. It was the same effect as Missy’s little handheld device made, and I assumed that the Doctor did in fact shoot her. I thought the Brig was just pointing out Kate’s presence in the graveyard. But I may have missed something. I do agree about the overuse of the Master during the Fifth Doctor era. He turned out to be behind almost every threat, and it got pretty tedious. I trust we won’t go that route again.

@bluesqueakpip    I’m sure the plan is for Gomez to return at some point. They’d be crazy to waste her.

@jimbomcmaster   I agree, that scene in the console room was absolutely heartbreaking!

I forgot to say in my earlier post that I am expecting to see some outrage on other forums on the subject of “love saves the day”. But we have been shown a couple of times now that strong enough human emotions can overcome cyber programming, so I was okay with it. (And plus it was an incredibly triumphant moment!)

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Wow, I’m still in shock. I actually thought that was nearly perfect. It will require a second viewing for me to count the ways, but briefly. The Doctor is not a good or bad man, he is an idiot with a blue box! The Doctor and Clara’s journey has involved a lot of lying. The Brigadier comes back as a Cyberman to save his daughter (that was actually the moment that reduced me to tears!). In the first scene, I bounced with joy on behalf of everyone who posited Clara as the Doctor. The Doctor’s Bond moment, complete with theme music.

However. At the risk of being an ARSE, I’m not sure I can forgive Moffat for killing Osgood. Especially after setting her up as a future companion. Wouldn’t she be fabulous?

But actually, I’m wondering about that little weapon of Missy’s. Because she seemed remarkably okay with letting the Doctor kill her. And where is her TARDIS? We have seen a self-destruct that was really a teleport before. So will Santa bring back Missy and Osgood for Christmas? I wonder.

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Oh, and I forgot one: I think Missy definitely has a TARDIS, and it is involved somehow in the mausoleum.

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Ah. So we’re putting our money down, are we? Okay, then, here goes. Being the happy-ending-girl that I am, I am going with: afterlife a con, Danny brought back, Missy survives to torment the Doctor another day, and Clara also survives. This last one is mainly because I like @janetteb’s idea about a return to Coal Hill School for Christmas, and an appearance by Ian. A Christmas Special would actually be the perfect time for that. I don’t think that this specific storyline will carry over into the special (although we might be given some kind of a cliffhanger in the same way that Name of the Doctor wrapped up the Impossible Girl but left us with John Hurt to think about!)

Off to watch some fine young men play soccer now, and by the time I get back, the show will be airing in the UK, so enjoy, and see you all on Sunday for drinks and the exchanging of “I told you so”. Or not, as the case might be!    🙂

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And @scaryb:    They might not always be to our personal liking, but it’s worth giving the writers/directors/producers etc a chance to tell the story they want to tell before making the call.   I was trying to say this. You said it better.   🙂

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@barnable    The Doctor is re-coding DNA into Computer Code on the chalkboards.   This is a very cool idea!

@jimthefish   Well said. I will admit that I’m not really warm to the idea of a female Doctor. But that’s a personal response, not really supported by the facts. I actually find that I can never really envision how anyone will work as the Doctor until I’ve seen it (even true of Capaldi, and I was excited about his casting). And as you say, if we can have a female Hamlet, I honestly can’t find a rational argument against a female Doctor!

@phaseshift   Interesting article. Yes, the tone of that sort of thing drives me nuts. I am never comfortable with the “it must happen”, “it’s coming so suck it up” sort of narrative, or the assumption that everyone who feels unsure about such a thing must be some kind of sexist fanboy nerd, etc. However, I agree with this:  As if Time Lords becoming women is baffling in a way that Time Lords becoming Scottish isn’t.   And I loved your sentence:   That hordes of screaming fanboys will descend on the BBC offices with placards demanding the rematerialisation of the Doctors willy?

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@perry

First of all, I don’t think it’s possible to compare AG and BG Who, because that implies two distinct entities, when in reality there are more than that. You can’t even really compare different Doctors’ eras, because the style of the show changed considerably from one end of the Tom Baker era to the other, and from McCoy’s first season to his later ones. I would say that some AG Who is better than some BG Who, and vice versa.

As for Moffat, I think he’s had his moments. Like many people, I thought his one-offs under RTD were brilliant. I loved Series 5, but was not so crazy about a lot of the Amy/Rory/River arc that followed. It’s interesting actually, as I glance over the episode list from Series 6 and 7a, that most of the episodes I most enjoyed were not penned by Moffat. Take all this with a grain of salt, mind you, because I enjoyed almost all of these episodes to some degree; I’ve said it many times, I am not a picky viewer! I enjoyed the “Impossible Girl” arc more generally, and he won me over completely with the Anniversary Special, which I found pretty much perfect. And now, of course, Capaldi.

So I guess what I’m saying is that I don’t think you can really lump his entire output into one consistent “era”. Of course, he’s been hugely influential. But obviously not more so than RTD, or some of the producers and writers from the
various AG periods. For what it’s worth.

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@whisht      I had the same thought about the potential connections to earlier episodes. I had dismissed it because of the similarity to A Good Man Goes to War, but that was awhile back now, so who knows? Like @bluesqueakpip, I find the idea rather fun. We’ve had some great secondary characters this season, it would be fun to see some of them tie in to the resolution of the arc.

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I wasn’t going to weigh in on this, but what the heck. My own view is that the “arrogance” that we see on both sides of the fence probably comes from a feeling of being under threat. I think that the biggest battle in North America these days is really the Christian/atheist one, but of course we also see it between faiths and between sects within faiths. I think that in very many cases, these battles would not have heated up to the point they have if people didn’t think (in some cases justifiably) that others were trying to take something away from them.

I subscribe to the atheist viewpoint myself, but I find the approach of people like Dawkins unfortunate, because rather than defending his own beliefs, he is attacking the beliefs of others. I am not comfortable with this. And while I know that many problems have and still do occur in the world as a result of religion, as a musician and a historian, I can’t help but balance that against the good that religion has also done. And frankly, people have been treating one another horrifically for all kinds of reasons, forever; they have never lacked “justification”.

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I don’t think Danny is permanently dead. The uploaded souls in the Bells of St. John were able to go back to their bodies if there were bodies left to go back to. @mudlark quoted Missy: “Imagine you could upload dying minds to that…” So I’m betting that as long as Danny is still on ice (so to speak), he can return there.

@stormintheheartofthesun    obviously she doesn’t want an army of Cybermen just because it’s cool.   Unlike most of us!  🙂

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@bluesqueakpip   @jimbomcmaster

There is only ever one truly right choice. It is this: Never go in against a Sicilian when Death is on the line!

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@macphisto96    I’m pretty sure that is Clara’s hand. Earlier in the episode, when she and the Doctor are looking at the painting, there is a clear view of her right hand, wearing what appear to be the same rings. I agree that the angle looks awkward and I can’t explain that, but I think it’s Clara’s hand.

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Well, really. I step out for a few short hours to watch a volleyball match, and someone leaves the screen door open and lets the trolls in. Seriously, are there no responsible adults present?    🙂

But there’s still @phaseshift, whose eloquent letter really says it all. And @lisa‘s bonkers speculation on the meaning of post-it notes!

I agree with @scaryb regarding both future Clara and pregnant Clara, although of course, I was just sure that Moffat wouldn’t do anything so obvious as have Missy be the Master!

I will say this: Peter Capaldi has proven to be my vision incarnate of Doctor Who heaven. He has been absolutely everything I could hope for in a Doctor. I love that he is less accessible, but to me he still exudes warmth, just not in the easy-to-reach manner of his predecessor. I love the wit, the gravitas, the impatience, the depth, and the intensity he brings to the role. I am really beginning to believe that he is my favourite Doctor since Tom Baker. Even if the final episode is a disappointment to me for whatever reason, I don’t think it will negate the complete joy I have taken in this series. I’ve never been a Moff-hater, but nor has he had my unreserved support; but I feel that since the anniversary special, he hasn’t missed a step. Which is not to say that every episode has rated 10 stars with me, but even my least favourites have rated high enough for enjoyment.

Play on, series finale, can’t wait!    🙂

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@drben   You’ve actually hit on the bigger point, which is that, sexism aside, two pregnant companions in a row would just be lazy writing.     I’m a woman and a writer, and this sentence makes me laugh! Because, shockingly, I have some sympathy for the notion that it matters not if Moffat is sexist, as long as he can write!

Obviously, it is more complicated than that in reality. But as a society, we are frequently put in the position of deciding whether an artist’s work is tainted by what we know of their attitudes or beliefs. I generally fall into the camp of “I can love the art, and dislike the artist.” And just to be clear, I don’t think Moffat is sexist.

@midnyt   Oh, great pull! Still laughing.

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@purofilion     Good to see you back out of the cupboard!   🙂

@janetteb   Maybe the cybermen are only a threat, akin to Clara and the keys      I like this parallel, and it’s the kind of thing we’ve seen before (cup-a-soup).

@bluesqueakpip    Love your summary of the different types of love shown in the episode.

@otherstuff    I’m pretty sure that Eleven was still calling her “my impossible girl” in the Christmas episode. So she is probably aware of what she did, just doesn’t remember all of it.

@flirtingdinosaur        The TARDIS is somehow connected to her keys of course. we’ve seen her being summend with one.    Excellent point!

Re: Clara recognizing Missy; I don’t think the lack of an “a-ha” moment when she saw Missy means anything in this case. A random woman in a shop gave her a help desk number, a long time ago. She may not have taken much note of her face, at the time. Also, Missy would certainly have been dressed differently, and might have looked quite different in modern clothes and so on.

@pedant   Wow. Just in case we needed a reminder that some people take this way too seriously… Also, somewhat lacking in logic.  “Any people who knew they could change sex at will would not choose a name like Susan for their child?”

And by the way, if I see one more person saying, “Why couldn’t they just have made her be the Rani?”, I’ll… well… not sure what I’ll do. But seriously, if they had wanted to bring back the Rani, they would have written an entirely different story, and written all the Missy scenes over the whole series differently, because the Rani would have needed completely different motivations and behaviour. Yes, yes, I know personalities change after regen, but not fundamental motivations, surely?

I wasn’t hoping for the Master, I’m not sure exactly where I stand on the whole “regeneration sex-change” issue. However, the character that Moffat wrote is clearly the Master in female form: convoluted plans, tendency toward the melodramatic, Doctor-obsession, and all.

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@cathannabel   I agree with your thoughts on the phone call. I don’t see this as a future Clara, but pretty much what we are shown: Clara trying to open up with Danny (and possibly including some truth that we aren’t privy to, either!)

@brewski     Yes, I was thinking of the security lock on my Toyota Matrix. You can’t start the car without the fob on the key chain, because it talks to the starter. So maybe with the TARDIS, you can snap your fingers as a shortcut, but not without the key in your possession. And yes, I’ve been thinking about the The Bells of St. John as well, strong similarity there with the uploading concept, and even Danny saying, “I don’t know where I am.”

@drben    I think the boy is real, because I think he has just walked up behind Danny in the last scene, and his presence is going to prevent Danny from deleting himself. My theory, not especially bonkers, but nevertheless.   🙂

@mudlark    Your vision of the dead rising up and looking for all the missing bits that now reside in museums just about choked me with laughter!

Oh, and I meant to ask, does anyone who “Xylo Jones” is?

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Just had my second watch. Man, that was good. 11/10. Personally, I don’t think it missed a beat. The first 16 minutes are possibly the best that DW has ever been. Clara’s anxious conversation with Danny, and the line “Those words from me are yours now,” I loved that line! And the way the music, and all sound, just stops, at the moment he is apparently hit by the car. Then Clara, running to the accident, and then the jump to later, with those terribly tragic flowers left at the scene (those memorials always make me shudder), and the distant voice of the headmaster announcing Danny’s death. The condolences to Clara make it feel very real, very final, very tragic.

And then the scene with the Doctor. You see it begin in the apartment with granny, that her grief has turned her mind inside out, and that she is determined to go back and change reality. Of course she threatens the Doctor, because she knows he will never agree otherwise. The way she breaks down when the final key appears to go into the lava, and then when she (and we) realize the truth. Her face, as she says, calmly, “Absolutely fair enough.” She has lost Danny, and now she has lost the Doctor. It’s not hard to imagine her leaving the TARDIS to go jump off a bridge, or something. When the Doctor tells her why he will help her, I love that he doesn’t hug her, just tells her off and gives her a weird, meant-to-be encouraging smile.

The rest of it is perfect. (I think the opening was the more than perfect part!) Danny in the Nethersphere, determined to get to the bottom of what’s going on, and his breathless panic when he finally understands (and believes). His flashback scenes and his scene with the boy are wonderfully played as well. Seb is hilarious but in a rather creepy way, and Doctor Chang is wonderfully geeky (and frankly a bit stupid at the end).

And Missy is really, really great. The little snippets we have been given up to now haven’t really endeared me to the character all that much, but now Gomez has been given something to run with, and look at her go. She is fab in her first scene, where you knew something is up because she definitely isn’t acting the way she has in other episodes. The kiss is just brilliant, and I love the three kisses on the nose at the end. By now, the Doctor is pretty much catatonic– he’s really not a hugging and kissing guy! “I am in charge!” she says, seeming shocked that he would imply otherwise. “My heart is maintained by the Doctor.” He is suspicious. “Doctor Who?” Her sudden bellow, “Dr. Chang?!!!” This whole scene was played perfectly.

The scene with Dr. Chang is very light and oddly amusing, until suddenly, with “Is there a particular dead person you want to talk to?” the tone changes right back to intense, helped by a little bit of otherworldly background music. Then we are catapulted almost immediately back to Danny and Seb. I love the way the tension keeps building, so slowly, two steps forward and one back.

Great lines:
“We’re here to get your boyfriend back from the dead. So buck up and give me some attitude!”
“Tongues?” “Shut up.”
“We have Steve Jobs.”
“Why? Was he an idiot?”
The Doctor saying, “They’re just dead, and they’re not coming back,” as the skeletons start rising in their tanks!

The moment we see the skeletons revealed as Cybermen is very well done. From here on, the increase in intensity is perfectly done, as we simultaneously watch the Doctor figuring out the truth, and the emotional climax with Danny and Clara. I found Danny’s attempt to “save” Clara from death by repeating “I love you” very moving, because it was so understated. (I was a bit surprised that she didn’t twig it, but she’d been through a lot, and was trying to be skeptical.) And meanwhile, the Doctor is confronting the truth about Missy. She is great, the camp is turned down a few notches, and she is intense, sarcastic, in control. Actually, a perfect Master. And I don’t think we’ve seen the Doctor wear an expression like that one in a good long time, as he finds out who she is. He is shocked, horrified, frightened.

Just a marvelous ride. I was afraid of a let down, but so far, so good. Can’t wait for the second part of this!

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@whisht   Those are great! Is the Nick Cave track part of your bonkers theory, by any chance?

@purofilion    With or without actual baton, it made no difference to my bobbing and weaving. I was simply no good at it. Which is fine, as I have never aspired to leadership!

Very good point about the music this week, it was wonderfully subtle, wasn’t it. I didn’t notice it so much as not notice it, if you take my meaning. I will be watching for it on second viewing, though!

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@purofilion     Thanks for sharing that. With so many dead in WWI, it’s a shame that some people still want to politicize these things. Surely, wherever we stand on the war/anti-war political spectrum, we can acknowledge that? Hopefully, nowadays, we can define our nations by greater parameters than how heroically we died, but that shouldn’t take away from our recognition of the tragedy and bravery of the dead.

When I was growing up, Remembrance Day in Canada wasn’t actually a day off, so we were all in school and in the workplace in those days. In schools, we held assembly, honoured local veterans, recited “In Flanders Fields”, sang the anthem, and acknowledged the moment at 11am. They still do that in school but not on the 11th anymore, because now it’s a stat holiday. In theory, this gives everyone the ability to participate, in person or via TV, in ceremonies at cenotaphs and moments of silence. I often wonder how many actually do this anymore?

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@purofilion    Well, yes. That is how I generally watch. My first viewing is very much an emotional one (which is probably why I rarely dislike an episode!). On rewatch I can see more twists/possibilities/flaws, and if I am formulating theories, it’s usually then that I do it.

@glenisterm @apopheniac    Aside from giving me the strong sense that Danny’s death had driven Clara pretty much insane, that blackmail scene also gave us a nice red herring in the trailer!

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@craig    Beautiful track, and excellent avatar! Byrne would be one of the more enigmatic Time Lords, certainly.

@purofilion   Kudos to you. I did take a conducting course as part of my undergrad, and frankly, I sucked at it. I seemed to lose all control over my body parts the minute I got that baton in my hand!

I have a recording of Scholl performing 15th century German songs, and on a couple of tracks he sings in his natural baritone. It is absolutely rich and gorgeous!

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@whoville    You’d think that by now he’d be relieved it’s just the Master again       No kidding!

@thekrynoidman   To me it just doesn’t seem like something any of the other incarnations of The Master would ever do.   I disagree, I think the Simm Master would have done it. In fact, even as a man, I can imagine his Master having done it!  🙂   (And in response to your refusal to put on a dress: my teenage son, who plays basketball, will not wear his basketball uniform without an undershirt to cover his armpits. Apparently, some things just go too far!)

@purofilion    I also loved The Doctor’s unabashed and unconditional love for ‘Clara, my Clara’.    Yes. When she asked him, “Why are you helping me?” so many possible answers flitted through my mind. What he came out with surpassed them all in excellence! I also really liked the line “Clara, I’m terribly sorry, but I’m exactly what you deserve.”  (And your whole post was lovely, BTW!)

@apopheniac   And I just noticed in the post-its that one is labelled “Truth” but thats not the one Clara pulls.  Instead she grabs “Just SAY it”.    I thought that she wanted to start with the depth of her love for him, in hopes that it would help mitigate some of the difficult things she had to say.

@phileasf     Love your theorizing! You are right about the Master’s long history of survival without explanation. However, I suspect that Moffat will give us an explanation, because he seems to be inclined that way. He usually tries to tie up his loose ends (even when the tying is brief or doesn’t convince everyone!). @blenkinsopthebrave, part of my assumption is based on the feeling that it would be very, very unlikely that the Doctor wouldn’t ask, “If you are the Master, how/when did you escape Gallifrey, what happened to Rassilon,” etc. etc. But we shall see, I guess. In any case, the question doesn’t bother me, because I know there could easily be an explanation.

And by the way, would a perception filter mean that there isn’t really a dome on St. Paul’s?   🙂

@scaryb   I take your point about getting people used to the idea of a female Master ahead of time. I would have preferred a bigger surprise, but I suppose this way helps mute the internet rage somewhat.

@workb   Didn’t Mickey say to Ten, “I thought maybe he was your evil twin” or something like that? And the Doctor blew the idea off as ridiculous?

@apopheniac   My intellect agrees that some mistakes cannot be fixed (such as the death of the boy), and that this is an important lesson. However, it seems much too dark a lesson for Doctor Who! Because, of course, it’s equally true that some mistakes can be fixed; and although death isn’t usually one of those, this is fantasy, so you never know. So I’m inclined to go with @blenkinsopthebrave‘s prediction that “they will all live happily ever after”.  (Because I’m just optimistic like that!)

 

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For @mudlark:   The sublime voice of Andreas Scholl, singing from Gluck’s Orfeo. Orfeo has just lost Euridice again after rescuing her from the underworld: What shall I do without Euridice? Where shall I go without my love? Euridice! Euridice! O heavens! Answer! I am still true to you! Euridice! Euridice! Ah, there is no help, no hope for me either on earth nor in heaven!

And @whisht, Screamin’ Jay, outstanding!   🙂

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@serahni   I agree about the pace of this story, I frequently feel that 45 minutes is too short. Also, I agree that while I wasn’t keen on Missy as the Master, partly because it had been signposted so egregiously, at least it was a believable outcome, and I would have been more upset had she turned out to be the Rani, for instance.

@lisa   There are still 45 minutes of story remaining. I’m assuming that we will be told how the Master escaped.

@mudlark  –  Excellent. We have all next week to talk about the various versions of the Orpheus story, it will give us something interesting to do around midweek when we’ve run out of theories.

@jimbomcmaster   (Do you become Jimbo McMistress now?) As someone who much prefers expressing complicated thoughts in writing rather than in a conversation (and edits almost everything, including these posts), I did not find the post-it notes confusing at all. Very important conversation. She didn’t want to leave anything out.

@spider     Good thought. I had thought the “3 months” meant the time she had spent in the TARDIS without telling Danny, but it could be pregnancy. Also, I think Jimbo is right that Orson must be descended from Clara, since Danny clearly hasn’t been time traveling, and Orson specifically mentioned a time traveling grandparent.

@thommck   Your ten-year-old is wise. Object, absorb, accept, move on. I have done the same! And @spider’s “5 stages of grief” were as much fun as the episode itself. Brilliant, actually.

 

 

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Well. The episode itself was great, beautiful roller coaster of intensity and laughter, with the shocker of Danny’s death right at the beginning setting the tone. After I caught my breath, it did occur to me that those who thought Clara would die and Danny and the Doctor would have to rescue her almost had it right! I was actually engaged enough in events that I forgot about the Cybermen until they showed up, which was nice.

I’m pleased that I was right about a few things (Danny being a good guy, Missy being a Time Lord). Well done to those who had suggested a Halloween connection, and that connection was nicely done, with the skeletons in their chambers and then watching them come to life.

My only disappointment here was the big reveal at the end, because it had been speculated on from the start. Perhaps Moffat had intended a YANA-like trick, but enough people caught on that it wasn’t really a surprise. It deprived me of an OMG moment at the end. But not the hugest of disappointments, given how well it was all done.

I did love Missy pretending to be an android at the start, and the kiss!!! Both the Doctor’s reaction to it and the in-joke itself were brilliant. And the Doctor asking “Doctor Who?”

We still don’t know how Clara fits in to Missy’s plan. Or how the Mistress/Master escaped from Gallifrey. So lots more still to be revealed. Off to the read your comments!   🙂

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I’ve been following the discussion between @bluesqueakpip and @jimbomcmaster on the Flatline thread, regarding good and bad choices and it gave rise to a notion that interests me. (I’m posting here because my thoughts really have nothing to do with Flatline!)

People have mentioned before, I believe, that AG incarnations of the Doctor were not averse to using violence when necessary. Seven appeared to have a dislike of guns and violence, but he still on occasion encouraged violence in others to further his ends. From what we learn in Night of the Doctor, Eight seems to have spent his part of the Time War trying to stay out of it altogether, and helping the victims when he could. In this sense, he may have been the first incarnation to fully take on the non-violence suggested by the “Doctor” title.

However, eventually, he chose to abandon the role of doctor and become a warrior. It seems to me that this must have been the first of the “less bad” choices that the War forced upon him. He would not have wanted to embrace that role. So he fought in the Time War, for what seems to have been a very long time, despite the Sister’s statement that the universe was “very nearly over” (or words to that effect). Perhaps at last, he realized that his participation was actually dragging things on and causing more suffering. This could have helped push him to feel the need to make a choice at that moment. Again, not a choice that he was comfortable with, but one that (at that point) he could see no way out of. And hence became even more anti-violence afterward, as a result of having made that choice. And hence Ten’s words to Kate Stewart that “that’s not a choice that you will ever be able to live with”, because he felt that she hadn’t yet come to the point of being forced to make it.

It seems to have taken the Doctor many lives to have come to the view that violence is always wrong. And then the Time War forced him (he felt) to abandon that principle. I don’t think he pushed Half-Face Man.  🙂

PS @craig, that photo is beautiful!

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@fatmaninabox    Oh, that is sweet. Nice video, too! I love the instrumentation in that, properly atmospheric.

Steeleye Span did a lot of fairly bloody tunes, without the edgy punk sound, but surprisingly grim lyrics in a folk-rock package.

And here is their take on Kurt Weill:

And for something completely different (just because I have always loved this song):

Happy Hallowe’en!

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@whisht   “Safe From Harm” could be a theme for the whole series: Danny keeping Clara safe, the Doctor keeping the earth safe, Clara keeping various children/people safe, and so on. It’s a thing!   🙂  And the Boards of Canada track was exactly the breath of sanity needed to pull me back from my Harper-induced madness (I’m okay, now, @purofilion, really!).

@xad4    Oh, lovely! He has such a beautiful, smooth sound. And doesn’t a mellow song sound even more mellow in Italian? My Italian is far too minimal to understand much of it, but I’m just going to assume that he’s saying nice things about my city.  🙂

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